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logman

Smash factor ........Fade V Draw

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logman    15

Hey all you Trackman monkeys. Yeah you! So i'm hitting into a STRONG wind. I know if I hit a fade it'l fly up,up,up and then fall straight down about 50 meters up the fairway, no great damage done but fricken no distance at all .....OR The draw!!!!!!!!!! knowing that if the wind gets a hold of it then I could be playing my second from further away from where I started.

So my Question is WHY!!! Why does the draw have the ability to travel over to the next state while the fade is "friendlier".

And another thing, is the smash factor more on a draw swing than on a "slicer". Why is that.

Explain that one .....golfers!

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iacas    4,174

Trackman monkeys? Really?

It's very simple. The ball only cares about ball speed, launch angle, and spin axis. You can manipulate those to be the same (with the opposite tilt to the spin axis) and you'd get balls that fly exactly the same, but most people tend to a have lower spin loft than when hitting a draw than with the fade.

Spin loft is the three dimensional difference between where the clubface is pointing (the clubface "normal") and the three-dimensional path. Those two vectors (lines) form an angle and that angle is the spin loft.

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saevel25    1,073

Depends on the wind. In all respects, if you hit a push draw, and a push fade, the fade will go slightly higher and have slightly more spin, but its not substantially higher. This is because the clubface is more open, meaning slightly higher loft, but once again, its not much.

The reason for Amateurs is because they don't hit a push draw or push fade. they Hit pull slices, pulls and pull draws. Meaning, when they hit a pull slice, its going to curve more than a push fade, it will have a lot more spin, and Amateurs tend to hit down on the ball with the driver, which substantially increases spin (balloon effect). But lets say they pull it, or draw the ball, now they come close to hitting it very solid, but there aim is off so they think they are hitting it straight, when they are not, but a pull is still a square clubface to swing path, so its still a very powerful shot compared to the pull slice. So this ball will have less side spin, and less backspin, and be less effected by the wind.

Also a fade isn't necessarily friendlier, i just think that's an old myth. Ask Zach Johnson if a fade is friendlier, he hits a draw off the tee majority of the time, and really has a hard time fading the ball at all.

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logman    15

Yes but why does the ball go further on a draw swing. 2 swings ,the same speed and bingo, one is 30 meters beyond the other.

So is the draw swing a naturally more powerfull stroke just in terms of a more "completeted" swing???? .......stick with me Iacas, this IS going somewhere!!

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iacas    4,174
Originally Posted by saevel25

The reason for Amateurs is because they don't hit a push draw or push fade. they Hit pull slices, pulls and pull draws. Meaning, when they hit a pull slice, its going to curve more than a push fade, it will have a lot more spin, and Amateurs tend to hit down on the ball with the driver, which substantially increases spin (balloon effect). But lets say they pull it, or draw the ball, now they come close to hitting it very solid, but there aim is off so they think they are hitting it straight, when they are not, but a pull is still a square clubface to swing path, so its still a very powerful shot compared to the pull slice. So this ball will have less side spin, and less backspin, and be less effected by the wind.

Also a fade isn't necessarily friendlier, i just think that's an old myth. Ask Zach Johnson if a fade is friendlier, he hits a draw off the tee majority of the time, and really has a hard time fading the ball at all.

Yeah. Draws go farther for a lot of amateurs because of how they arrive at impact. And not just amateurs, pros too, though they have the benefit of creating plenty of speed. You could easily make the case that a pull-fade goes farther than a push-draw, but in reality most pull-fades are hit with the handle back a little and more dynamic loft than a push-draw.

Originally Posted by logman

Yes but why does the ball go further on a draw swing. 2 swings ,the same speed and bingo, one is 30 meters beyond the other.

I already answered that. First, they may not be the same speed. Second, your spin loft, dynamic loft, etc. were likely more conducive to distance with the draw.

Originally Posted by logman

So is the draw swing a naturally more powerfull stroke just in terms of a more "completeted" swing????

Also a possibility (see above about how "they may not be the same speed").

Some people can swing faster (and more consistently) to the left a little, others to the right a little.

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logman    15
Originally Posted by saevel25

Depends on the wind. In all respects, if you hit a push draw, and a push fade, the fade will go slightly higher and have slightly more spin, but its not substantially higher. This is because the clubface is more open, meaning slightly higher loft, but once again, its not much.

The reason for Amateurs is because they don't hit a push draw or push fade. they Hit pull slices, pulls and pull draws. Meaning, when they hit a pull slice, its going to curve more than a push fade, it will have a lot more spin, and Amateurs tend to hit down on the ball with the driver, which substantially increases spin (balloon effect). But lets say they pull it, or draw the ball, now they come close to hitting it very solid, but there aim is off so they think they are hitting it straight, when they are not, but a pull is still a square clubface to swing path, so its still a very powerful shot compared to the pull slice. So this ball will have less side spin, and less backspin, and be less effected by the wind.

Also a fade isn't necessarily friendlier, i just think that's an old myth. Ask Zach Johnson if a fade is friendlier, he hits a draw off the tee majority of the time, and really has a hard time fading the ball at all.

NICE, Thing is I've never been someone that can shape the ball.....never had much use for a ball that doesn't go straight. But I was mucking around with a bucket of balls tonight, flipping from right handed to left and back. there's something odd about feeling the golf swing from a completely different perspective. It's kinda illuminating and frustrating all at once. Anyway I noticed that my draws came from "completed" swings.....I mean swings where my bottom hand fired hard over my top hand in a full release of the clubface a la throwing an underarm cricket throw ( you guys know cricket, right, It's like baseball without the boredom ).

So my swing feels like I'm driving my bottom hand at contact. It feels like I'm closing the face to make a good contact just that little bit sweeter

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logman    15
Originally Posted by iacas

Yeah. Draws go farther for a lot of amateurs because of how they arrive at impact. And not just amateurs, pros too, though they have the benefit of creating plenty of speed. You could easily make the case that a pull-fade goes farther than a push-draw, but in reality most pull-fades are hit with the handle back a little and more dynamic loft than a push-draw.

I already answered that. First, they may not be the same speed. Second, your spin loft, dynamic loft, etc. were likely more conducive to distance with the draw.

Also a possibility (see above about how "they may not be the same speed").

Some people can swing faster (and more consistently) to the left a little, others to the right a little.

But in general you'd say the draw swing is a more powerful swing ....in terms of the bottom hand creating a full rotation in a more drivey, punchy follow throughy  thing

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iacas    4,174
Originally Posted by logman

Anyway I noticed that my draws came from "completed" swings.....I mean swings where my bottom hand fired hard over my top hand in a full release of the clubface a la throwing an underarm cricket throw ( you guys know cricket, right, It's like baseball without the boredom).

You may or may not have been doing those things. Feel ain't real. You can be critical all you want but that's a big part of the benefit of high speed video.

Originally Posted by logman

But in general you'd say the draw swing is a more powerful swing ....in terms of the bottom hand creating a full rotation in a more drivey, punchy follow throughy  thing

No.

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The reason you hit a draw farther is because you are hitting the inside of the ball and transfering more energy than you do when you hit a fade.

Smash factor is calculation between ball speed and club head speed: ball speed / club speed = smash factor

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saevel25    1,073

Quote:

The reason you hit a draw farther is because you are hitting the inside of the ball and transfering more energy than you do when you hit a fade.

Smash factor is calculation between ball speed and club head speed: ball speed / club speed = smash factor

Here's the thing, you can hit a fade from the inside of the ball to, Push fade. Given you can get more of a fade if you have a bit of a more neutral to over the top swing, because it decreased the extreme amount your face has to be open at impact, but Fade does not equal over the top. You can achieve the same clubhead speed and contact relationship from an inside inpact than from an outside impact, as long as you hit the clubface in the same place, with the same clubhead speed, it works out to be the same. Meaning you can hit a pull fade, and a push draw the same distance, if you hit them with the same degree of difference between swing path to clubface angle, and hit the same spot on the driver, with the same clubhead speed, and they should end up near each other in the fairway.

I think the misconception a fade is Friendlier ,

1) jack made the fade popular

2) You have a lot more room to come over the top versus comming from the inside, just because your body is in the way. You can easily cut across the ball at a higher degree than coming from the inside. So i think its just been touted as an easier shot to hit.

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The OP was not talking about a push fade. It was a fade vs. draw. A fade is left to right and a draw is right to left.

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saevel25    1,073

but there are two fades, push fade and pull fades. A fade that starts right and goes slightly right is a completely different shot than a fade that starts left and goes back to the right. A fade is just a right movement, it differentiates depending on the initial direction in which the shot starts. For good golfers, push draws and push fades are much more desirable than pull draws or pull fades, but all four type of shots are playable. Also the wind will effect a pull fade different than a push fade, with the fact a pull fade will be at a lower launch angle than a push fade.

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Originally Posted by saevel25

but there are two fades, push fade and pull fades. A fade that starts right and goes slightly right is a completely different shot than a fade that starts left and goes back to the right. A fade is just a right movement, it differentiates depending on the initial direction in which the shot starts. For good golfers, push draws and push fades are much more desirable than pull draws or pull fades, but all four type of shots are playable. Also the wind will effect a pull fade different than a push fade, with the fact a pull fade will be at a lower launch angle than a push fade.

I agree, the push fade will produce a more powerful shot IMO, a push fade starts right then curves right, if you are square to your target. So if you look at it like that then you would have to aim way left of your target to get the ball to land back on the target line. The ball flight laws will show that the swing would be out to in with the face open to the path, and that is what most people may consider to be a fade. I guess you can look at it in several different ways like you said.

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saevel25    1,073

Well, its just how i think it should be looked at. If a person comes to me and says, "I want to hit a draw"

So i would line them to line to a target, i would stand behind them and look at the shot, were are they aiming, how the ball comes off the clubface.

If the person hits a push fade, then all i need to do is get to swing a tad more from the inside and close the clubface a bit, this is a much easier fix.

If a person has a pull fade/slice, then the swing needs a serious overhaul, to go from an over the top to a from the inside swing.

But as for smash factor, hitting it into the wind, angle of attack maybe has more importance than swing path. Because a head on wind will increase backspin more than side spin. Though i have hit slices into the wind that just took off before. I also have had big draws get caught in wind before and get pushed even more left. But, when i hit up on the ball, draws and fades hardly get effected by the wind, because there's just so much less backspin on the ball for the wind to baloon it.

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iacas    4,174
Originally Posted by saevel25

But as for smash factor, hitting it into the wind, angle of attack maybe has more importance than swing path. Because a head on wind will increase backspin more than side spin. Though i have hit slices into the wind that just took off before. I also have had big draws get caught in wind before and get pushed even more left. But, when i hit up on the ball, draws and fades hardly get effected by the wind, because there's just so much less backspin on the ball for the wind to baloon it.

Wind doesn't "increase" spin at all (and to be pedantic, there's only one spin, it's possibly around an axis that's not perfectly horizontal). The more SPIN there is, the more the wind will affect the ball - either to balloon it or to cause it to curve (in either direction).

Also, people play the PGA Tour - quite well, though they tend to be lower ball hitters) with pull-draws (Sam Snead for most of his shots), and pull-fades (Paul Azinger).

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Originally Posted by iacas

Wind doesn't "increase" spin at all (and to be pedantic, there's only one spin, it's possibly around an axis that's not perfectly horizontal). The more SPIN there is, the more the wind will affect the ball - either to balloon it or to cause it to curve (in either direction).

Also, people play the PGA Tour - quite well, though they tend to be lower ball hitters) with pull-draws (Sam Snead for most of his shots), and pull-fades (Paul Azinger).

I agree, when hitting into the wind, drag and lift are increased, leading to ballooning golf ball flights and lost distance, and with the wind, drag and lift are reduced, leading to increased distance given the right launch conditions.

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saevel25    1,073

Makes sense, sorry for the wrong information, i just thought that sideways movement was caused by spin, so to get more movement the spin increases, i guess a better way would be, the ball moves in the path of least resistance, so a spin going in the same direction of the wind will travel that way more.

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