My Swing (Alx)

[Alx]

Hit a few drives at a demo recently. What a difference. My current driver is the 915 D3 with the x stiff rogue silver shaft. I bleed my shots to the right and strikes are a bit too inconsistent.

I hit the jpx900 with the fujikura evo 2 661 s 1inch shorter at the demo and I was striking it off the middle and straight without having to feel like Im forcing the shot to go straight. It also felt that the shots flew off the face easily.

Interestingly with the full length s-stiff I was hitting random misses straight off the heel. This is whats happened with every 45in s-stiff Ive ever hit.

I also hit some drives with a long drive driver and the feel was pretty similar to my current one. I really had to work hard to stop everything from bleeding right. 

I ordered some lead tape to do a bit of testing with the driver. Adding a bit off head weight will bring the swing weight of the driver a bit more in line with the rest of the set and the shaft should also play a bit less stiff. Well see if it makes any difference. I thought it would be worth a shot since the new driver would be around 400e...

tldr. Equipment really does matter.

 

 

Done a lot of short game work recently. Really seeing results.

Working on more target practice with the irons. Ive been setting up with and open face at the ball and it really allows me to go for the shot hard without having to worry about hooks. It works really well for directional control but Iam hitting shots a bit toey and trying to go for a more middle strike I get scared of the hosel. I can sacrifice a few yards of distance if the consistency stays like this but its something I have to keep an eye on.

Heres a vid from some strike practice Ive been doing. Hitting up off a high tee.

 

 

 

[Alx]

More target practice. Not really working on anything technical right now just trying to get some reps in on the range really making sure I set up correctly to the shot, do my pre shot routine and hit it or back off the shot if I dont feel comfortable.

 

 

[iacas]

@Alx, you don't think you're too close to the ball? Tiger is about as close as anyone gets (2012 at Olympic shown), and he has a lot more space at impact and setup compared to you. Look at the back of your neck and the top of your back/neck at impact in the one photo…

Also, you're good with this A4, or you're working on changing that a bit?

[Alx]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

@Alx, you don't think you're too close to the ball? Tiger is about as close as anyone gets (2012 at Olympic shown), and he has a lot more space at impact and setup compared to you. Look at the back of your neck and the top of your back/neck at impact in the one photo…

I did talk about this during the winter with an instructor. We tried setting the ball further away but I feel like Im having to reach for the ball and I just cant keep my balance. My weight drifts to my toes and I just cant keep balance. Moving the ball closer improves strike massively and balance feels solid.

I have been working with a feel where I want to be completely balanced on my feet before going into the shot and that generally has meant being quite close to the ball.

Im 6'3 my clubs are standard length at 2deg up and Ive pretty short arms. I set up with an open stance so theres a bit more space there than what the trail leg shows. Could it just be a combination of those forcing me pretty close/visual?

My build is a bit back heavy and Im definitely bigger than Tiger but even so I do agree it does look pretty cramped. It doesnt feel anywhere as bad as it looks though. Actually it feels the opposite if anything. I just feel like this is something the equipment and limb length etc. dictates?

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

Also, you're good with this A4, or you're working on changing that a bit?

You mean the depth of the hands? I compared to some of the tall pros and they had their hands pretty deep. My backswing is also pretty short so I think that makes it look even more extreme.

Im not working on it currently. Do you think its a problem?

 

[iacas]

Just now, Alx said:

I did talk about this during the winter with an instructor. We tried setting the ball further away but I feel like Im having to reach for the ball and I just cant keep my balance. My weight drifts to my toes and I just cant keep balance. Moving the ball closer improves strike massively and balance feels solid.

Yeah… I'm not so sure about that. Of course you're having to "reach" for the ball compared to what you're doing now. And I don't buy that you can't keep your balance. Maybe not in the first 20 balls you hit, or even 100, but… over time, no, because everyone else who plays golf can keep their balance with the ball out there. Heck, if I put it on a T-Ball tee, you could keep your balance.

That's not an argument for setting up differently… but what you typed there is not an argument for staying the way you are.

If I give someone a different grip, they will often say it feels "weird." It takes a little while to get used to it. But you've gotta switch from palmy and weak to fingers/neutral-stronger at some point.

Just now, Alx said:

I have been working with a feel where I want to be completely balanced on my feet before going into the shot and that generally has meant being quite close to the ball.

It's likely limiting some of the things you can do.

Just now, Alx said:

Im 6'3 my clubs are standard length at 2deg up and Ive pretty short arms. I set up with an open stance so theres a bit more space there than what the trail leg shows. Could it just be a combination of those forcing me pretty close/visual?

No, you're really close to the ball.

Why not get an extra inch on your clubs, especially if you've got shorter arms?

Just now, Alx said:

My build is a bit back heavy and Im definitely bigger than Tiger but even so I do agree it does look pretty cramped. It doesnt feel anywhere as bad as it looks though. Actually it feels the opposite if anything. I just feel like this is something the equipment and limb length etc. dictates?

Yeah, but… change the equipment.

Just now, Alx said:

You mean the depth of the hands? I compared to some of the tall pros and they had their hands pretty deep. My backswing is also pretty short so I think that makes it look even more extreme.

Nobody's quite like that, no. Matt Kuchar:

Plus, that A4 position looks like you're back on your heels a little to me.

@mvmac?

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

@Alx, you don't think you're too close to the ball? Tiger is about as close as anyone gets (2012 at Olympic shown), and he has a lot more space at impact and setup compared to you. 

Agree. @Alx, generally it's good to see the arms hang a little bit away from you. I think standing too close is a combo of you being a bit on your heels at address and....

50 minutes ago, Alx said:

Im 6'3 my clubs are standard length at 2deg up and Ive pretty short arms. I set up with an open stance so theres a bit more space there than what the trail leg shows. Could it just be a combination of those forcing me pretty close/visual?

Seems like you need to add some length to your irons. I'm 5'10 with short arms and I go with a 37.5" 6-iron, which is standard or 1/4" over, depending on brand.

50 minutes ago, Alx said:

You mean the depth of the hands? I compared to some of the tall pros and they had their hands pretty deep. My backswing is also pretty short so I think that makes it look even more extreme.

Depth and the amount your arms are connected to your torso. It's fine to have the arm pit region of the upper arm connected but not the entire upper arm, going to hurt your ability to create leverage. When your right arm is that glued to your side it doesn't have any room on the downswing to stay bent and "in front" of you. Imagine trying to skip a rock with your arm like that, can't do it.

Pros that are tall and more "one-plane" have some spacing with the right elbow and the rib cage. Even on a short swing their entire upper right arm won't be connected to their side.

[Alx]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not so sure about that. Of course you're having to "reach" for the ball compared to what you're doing now. And I don't buy that you can't keep your balance.

The difference in strike and consistency is pretty insane. I did give it a real try but I just wasnt able to do it. Eventually I just thought eff-it moved closer and I was hitting it crisp instantly.

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, you're really close to the ball.

Why not get an extra inch on your clubs, especially if you've got shorter arms?

Yeah, but… change the equipment.

Well I didint think I could handle any more length and at the time I got this set I really could not have. But it also isnt free and Im already getting a hard time for spending so much on clubs .

Tbh I never thought it was really limiting anything I was doing. 

 

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

Nobody's quite like that, no. Matt Kuchar

True. But they were deeper than your average pros so that justified it for me. Basically telling me that equipment dictated how youd set up etc. 

My logic was that because Im so close to the ball I still have to get the clubhead away from the ball or I would be coming down too steep.

If we look at the relation of the clubhead and the ball it isnt that different even though Im so close. The deep hands are there cause Im so close.

Makes sense imo?

 

I started only 2 years ago. I had to learn how to hit the ball and learn how to coach myself so a lot of the stuff Im saying is probably obvious to you. Please bear with 

 

 

ps.

41 minutes ago, iacas said:

Plus, that A4 position looks like you're back on your heels a little to me.

ITrail leg does. Lead leg looks pretty even though?

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, Alx said:

My logic was that because Im so close to the ball I still have to get the clubhead away from the ball or I would be coming down too steep.

I think that's backward, actually.

If you were playing T-Ball, you'd swing around yourself the most. Croquet, you swing very upright. Putting, for example, is one of the most upright planes of all - the putter is typically bent at a 70° lie angle.

18 minutes ago, Alx said:

If we look at the relation of the clubhead and the ball it isnt that different even though Im so close. The deep hands are there cause Im so close.

I don't care about the clubhead, really… you could go WAY across the line and get the clubhead in a spot that "matches." That line should connect to the butt of the club.

But… even connecting it to the clubhead, your line passes almost a foot lower than Tiger's! It's passing almost through your right elbow, which is glued to the bottom of your rib cage. Your line passes through your belly button, Tiger's through the middle of his sternum.

18 minutes ago, Alx said:

Makes sense imo?

Not to me.

I'd revisit the distance you are from the ball, too, for sure. Don't fall into the trap of what's comfortable… because then you'll never change anything.

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, Alx said:

True. But they were deeper than your average pros so that justified it for me. Basically telling me that equipment dictated how youd set up etc. 

My logic was that because Im so close to the ball I still have to get the clubhead away from the ball or I would be coming down too steep.

If we look at the relation of the clubhead and the ball it isnt that different even though Im so close. The deep hands are there cause Im so close.

Forget all that and just take a look at this position. This is something that needs to change, it's not functional for the arms to be glued to your torso like this.

[Jack Watson]

I am impressed you can do those contortions and make contact.  You are in very good shape.  

Weird how the hands are WAY deep AND low at the top and you are still steepish from the top with hands pulling down...Odd combo.  Does your right forearm ever collide with your right leg?

I can't offer advice that is really relevant.  In a way your move impresses me in terms of the calories you must burn doing it.

 

 

 

[mvmac]

10 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Weird how the hands are WAY deep AND low at the top and you are still steepish from the top with hands pulling down...Odd combo.

Actually it kind of makes sense. The right elbow doesn't have any room to work "under" (skipping a rock/external rotation) so it stays slightly above the left elbow mid-downswing. Everything so low and in on the backswing that if he did work the elbow properly and shallow the shaft he'd miss the ball.

[Alx]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't care about the clubhead, really… you could go WAY across the line and get the clubhead in a spot that "matches."

I was just illustrating how far the clubhead was from the x-plane(coordinates x/y).

If all else stayed equal and I just took the club more up/less deep with the hands I would have to come straight down and path starts going left to compensate or toe points down?

 

9 hours ago, iacas said:

But… even connecting it to the clubhead, your line passes almost a foot lower than Tiger's! It's passing almost through your right elbow, which is glued to the bottom of your rib cage. Your line passes through your belly button, Tiger's through the middle of his sternum.

I Realize that. The reason I ignored the shaft was that the 2d image distorts whats happening. The clubhead essentially just being a point in space doesnt distort. Makes more sense to compare points.

The plane looks good though imo? Its not steep at impact and it matches what I "should" deliver with an 8 since the lie is being delivered flat and pretty much identical to setup.

 

5 hours ago, mvmac said:

Forget all that and just take a look at this position. This is something that needs to change, it's not functional for the arms to be glued to your torso like this.

Actually it kind of makes sense. The right elbow doesn't have any room to work "under" (skipping a rock/external rotation) so it stays slightly above the left elbow mid-downswing. Everything so low and in on the backswing that if he did work the elbow properly and shallow the shaft he'd miss the ball.

Well originally I did it to get the feeling of stability and shorten my backswing. It probably went to where it is now when I realized I could still hit it plenty far even with a very restricted backswing.

Keeping the right arm tucked in like that makes everything feel stable and compact.

What do you/ @iacas think it causes? 

 

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I am impressed you can do those contortions and make contact.  You are in very good shape.  

Weird how the hands are WAY deep AND low at the top and you are still steepish from the top with hands pulling down...Odd combo.  Does your right forearm ever collide with your right leg?

Gym 5 days a week. I make good contact generally .

Last winter we worked on my ee. I was basically colliding and hitting everything toey. Worked on feeling like I was hitting with just the arms. We got it fixed and this season it hasnt been an issue.

 

 

Really appreciate the input!

[Jack Watson]

There's only one swing I can think of from a pro that's kinda similar...Doug Sanders.

Sanders creates more space at address and has good width maintained which allows him to have very good rotation of the torso coming through.  At address he's not on his heels.  He doesn't suck the club inside on takeaway.  

If you watch the downswing his club is working in a good path.  He has space to work and he's not deep and steep coming down.  I think with your lack of space you are making aggressive rotation impossible.  

To me all the pieces in the Sanders swing match up.  It's unconventional but it did work for him.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

Here's the face on.  Look how well everything gets through.  He's not all jammed up

Look at how much right arm he has left here and he's way further around than you

 

 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Alx]

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

He has space to work and he's not deep and steep coming down. I think with your lack of space you are making aggressive rotation impossible.  

Could be but thats sort of why I set up the way I do with the grip and everything. I want to create a tight framework to limit the "mistakes" when I swing and so far it has been working pretty well.

But the steepness is a non issue if the club is delivered at desired lie at impact. Imo.

 

5 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

There's only one swing I can think of from a pro that's kinda similar...Doug Sanders.

I can see the similarities but some key differences. 

I know you said you might not have advice but still what would be the problems youd think the differences cause?

 

6 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

To me all the pieces in the Sanders swing match up.  It's unconventional but it did work for him.

Its working well for me too so as a whole its definitely functional despite not being textbook.

 

Heres a compilation of todays swings. Was getting varying angles to get a better idea of whats going on in 3d. I went through some other videos and it looks like I am setting up a bit closer on yesterdays swings than what I normally do. Still close though.

 

 

 

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Alx said:

I was just illustrating how far the clubhead was from the x-plane(coordinates x/y).

What's the point in that?

Plus, again, your clubhead isn't anywhere near as high as it is in the Tiger video - your X/Y slope goes just above your elbow, Tiger's goes through his right shoulder. The clubhead isn't anywhere near in the same place.

9 hours ago, Alx said:

If all else stayed equal and I just took the club more up/less deep with the hands I would have to come straight down and path starts going left to compensate or toe points down?

I don't think you would. After all… thousands of golfers have done it. You're plenty deep. You don't lose depth taking your hands "up."

You can still swing out from a better position.

9 hours ago, Alx said:

The plane looks good though imo? Its not steep at impact and it matches what I "should" deliver with an 8 since the lie is being delivered flat and pretty much identical to setup.

I don't think so, no.The plane is too much around you. The elbows can't work properly, and so the clubhead can't work properly.

1 hour ago, Alx said:

Could be but thats sort of why I set up the way I do with the grip and everything. I want to create a tight framework to limit the "mistakes" when I swing and so far it has been working pretty well.

But the steepness is a non issue if the club is delivered at desired lie at impact. Imo.

:sigh:

1 hour ago, Alx said:

Its working well for me too so as a whole its definitely functional despite not being textbook.

I disagree that it's "working." And if you define it as "working" now, you're basically just practicing an ingraining a move that's going to be severely limiting in the future.

I don't have "one swing" that's "textbook" or anything.

Keep doing what you're doing if you want. I have no skin in the game. I was just trying to help, because I feel pretty strongly that you're setting yourself up for some major roadblocks in the future.

[Alx]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

What's the point in that?

Plus, again, your clubhead isn't anywhere near as high as it is in the Tiger video - your X/Y slope goes just above your elbow, Tiger's goes through his right shoulder. The clubhead isn't anywhere near in the same place.

The point was to show that my club is indeed lower but the angle between the clubhead and the ball is almost identical so our downswing plane is tilted similarly. Im just "lower" on it.

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think you would. After all… thousands of golfers have done it. You're plenty deep. You don't lose depth taking your hands "up."

You can still swing out from a better position.

Were not talking about the same thing here.

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think so, no.The plane is too much around you. The elbows can't work properly, and so the clubhead can't work properly.

Ok. What does properly mean in this context?

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I disagree that it's "working." And if you define it as "working" now, you're basically just practicing an ingraining a move that's going to be severely limiting in the future.

I don't have "one swing" that's "textbook" or anything.

Im not claiming my swing is perfect or the future of golf but saying its not working is not truthful. 

The textbook was a response to @Jack Watson

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Keep doing what you're doing if you want. I have no skin in the game. I was just trying to help, because I feel pretty strongly that you're setting yourself up for some major roadblocks in the future.

Wait... Im not rejecting your or @mvmac s or anyone elses help. I was just explaining how Ive gotten to do the things I do and how Ive justified the differences.

Im hitting the ball really well right now so I dont know what Im trying to fix. Knowing that a change like this will make things so much worse before getting better means I really have to understand what Im trying to or Ill just waste time and revert back. So Im not trying to be a pain Im just trying to understand how to achieve the things youre suggesting.

The way Ive gone about making changes was to learn from the pros and Im not seeing the difference in elbow or clubhead action so I really dont know what I should be doing different.

 

 

I dont know if it makes a difference but this is literally as close to the chest as I can get that lead arm.

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Alx

[mvmac]

12 hours ago, Alx said:

Keeping the right arm tucked in like that makes everything feel stable and compact.

What do you/ @iacas think it causes? 

Here

To further expand, with your right elbow being glued to your side the elbow can't work properly, meaning the right elbow stays up and in and your can only shallow the shaft by flipping it. Look at how straight your right arm is at impact.

Your right arm/hand works more like your closing the lid to a trash can instead of skipping a rock (internal vs external rotation). When the right arm straightens at a fast rate it also stalls your rotation.

Notice the difference between the right elbow flex and how the right elbow is more "under" the left. Notice how this helps them rotate, look at where their chest and hips are pointing.

 

42 minutes ago, Alx said:

The way Ive gone about making changes was to learn from the pros and Im not seeing the difference in elbow or clubhead action so I really dont know what I should be doing different.

 

Hopefully what I've posted helps but there is a big difference on the downswing and a HUGE difference between you and the pros on the backswing, with the how narrow you load the arms and shaft. You're giving up a lot of distance and your ability to keep improving your ballstriking.