Blackjack Don

Thank you. My bad. It's been awhile since I went back and looked at the 5 Keys. Duh. Okay, I get it now, and will go back to the original source. I might have been better off sticking to one program than trying to pack them all in at the same time. One of my flaws is being in too much of a hurry. And yet, I believe, scores haven't gone down. Why is that? Everybody has an answer, and nobody is right. Turns out to be a harder game than I thought. For some reason, I get a much different result, consistently, when I take away the club with the club face mirroring my spine angle, than rolling it open toe up, which consistently sends the ball to the right in a push. I am not sure where I'm deviating and how the closed club face is correcting the flaw. Esp since I can't find a swing coach who is open-minded to having a very argumentative student. 😁 No worries. I don't know if you guys get many compliments on the forum software, but it's one of the best I've ever used in nearly thirty years of online experience, at a layperson's level. There is an awful lot to like about it, and if you had anything to do with the development, I hope you got a piece of the action, and are now teaching as a labor of love. We used to joke about all search engines suck, when mostly it was operator error--pilot flew into mountain. Thanks for your patience. I know I am a troublemaker, but I have only the best intentions. I only look like a troll, but I'm not really. I'm a simple skeptic. Best wishes.

Definitely worth repeating. I am finding myself agreeing with this more and more. My path started out far from the goal of counting every stroke, perhaps because I needed to think I was better than I was, or I would have quit. Sometimes delusion isn't a bad thing? As someone with a deep interest in the mind, I find golf infinitely interesting and also satisfying. If the most important distance in golf is the four inches between our ears, then it's a good thing we seek refuge in delusion. Hope this has been an interesting thread for everyone else.

My nominee for post of the year. You just summed up the average golfer out there. I'm sixty-three, and my goal is to shoot 85--counting every penalty--by the end of my third year upcoming. I'm in the nineties, now. It would be nuts for me to think of par as anything except one under given my age and ability. Totally delusional for me think I might break 80, but, as Toby Keith said, I might shoot my age if I live to 88.

I'd suggest it's a big mistake we often make thinking we practice enough, or we can at all? It's a mistake to say I'll skip a day, or worse, this week. It's a very hard skill to learn. Most of us aren't much in the way of athletic. Another delusion? lol

Yeah, I've been accused of overthinking, a lot. Sometimes when I hit my best shots it feels like I'm flailing at the ball, almost loosey-goosey. When I overgrip or over-hit, I get poor results. Okay, I don't know what commonality means. Are you saying neither matters? A question, please. Does anything make any difference on the backswing, except for swing plane? Is it all about the downswing? No matter what a player does, he or she has to have the club in the proper position to make a hit, yes? This is why some players with the worst swings still manage to get the club on the ball in the right place? Oh, one more, if you please. Years ago in the age of wood, it was said the "sweet spot" was the size of a dime. Even with tech advancements, isn't it still pretty much the same size? Thanks

That's not a bad idea at all.

Then I find a David Ledbetter video where he has the butt tip pointing toward the right hip, with a cupped wrist at the top. Oy. Slightly closed, not toe up or face up at the top. He doesn't even mention face at the top. Good grief. I give up

Upon further investigation, I seem to have found a major controversy among professionals and enthusiasts. Toe up toe up, or closed clubface at takeaway? A tip I haven't worked with yet is the butt aiming at the left hip. Keeping the clubhead outside of the path the hands are taking. The position at the top no greater than parallel to the target line? Left wrist straight at the top? If I do toe up, I tend to cup my left wrist at the top, and I rarely get the left wrist back flat at impact. I find I cannot successfully roll the wrist at the top. I struggle with laying the club back. Neither of those, I have no feel for them. I am tending to point the club to the right of the target line at the top, which I think is the result of cupping at the top. Does this make sense, Patch?

I did a search on "toe up" and got zero results. Please give a link to further discussion. Recently, that swing key I needed unlocked my swing. A You Tube video pro said to keep my wrist straight on the takeaway, keeping my left wrist as straight as I can through the hitting zone. My Achilles heel has always been a weak left wrist. This produced immediate and repeatable results. Needless to say, I was thrilled. But...this is directly challenging the more widely-accepted (taught?) "toe up at hip level, toe up on the followthrough." When I do this, I leave the face open and push to the right. Keeping the face shut, my dispersion pattern tightens, a lot. It could be just me. However, I'm currently looking for a pro for some coaching. I think this is a big deal, a dealbreaker in fact. Is it insulting to ask about this? Overthinking it? lol What is the conventional wisdom? Toe up or closed face? Thanks. Don

To paraphrase Gary Larsen of the Far Side: Suddenly Don found himself out on thin ice. Some would find that statement debatable. I believe "gauche" has been used recently. Lots of places I can't afford to play. It would be interesting to know if they are making money, and how much more now.

Here's another old favorite: the ball should be up there when it's really forty yards back there. 😆

Yes, I agree about the athletics. But that also brings a delusion, that people who aren't athletes can do it--as well, or better, or will someday. Not just a people thing, but a real derangement. lol You're saying there are golfers who are totally sane? Wouldn't that be boring? 🤔 Thanks for the opinion, Eric. If it wasn't for the addiction, you'd have to find a job. A job is something you wouldn't do for free. I have a job. I wouldn't deal a hand for free, even if being a blackjack dealer in Vegas is a pretty cool gig. But to teach golf, omg... I'd rake sand traps and fill divots for less money and playing privileges. (not, but you know) How about this one? I was testing clubs and the guy at the big box store suggested a Taylormade M4. He said it had a concave face which guides the ball back to the center. Ugly club, in my opinion, kind of like a hybrid. I said, okay, that's the good part, what's the cost? He said there was no downside. Why aren't the pros using it? Tradition, he said. Nobody wants to change. I smiled. Right. This is not logical. If I were using a tool for a living, I'd have the best tools money could buy, if it made me more money. Screw tradition. I'd be Bryson D. Even golf isn't that conservative. Or is that a myth, too?

Agreed, Marv, and one of the most fascinating things, to me, about golf. I'm totally fascinated at why the game seems to bring out some of our strongest delusions. One of my co-workers can't hit it 200, but, man, he does hit it straight. I told him if he moved up it wouldn't wreck the course but bring it back to him. He won't budge. I think he feels it is against the spirit of the game, or it's religious, or who knows? There are lots of examples out there of denial, and most of them don't make us laugh, but should. 😁 The right ball, the right club, somewhere out there I can buy a better swing. It's crazy. An entire industry, and we wouldn't have it any other way. I think golf is a special kind of sweet, sweet fantasy. My old golf buddy says, "Same golfer, more experience." I like that.

Oftentimes when I'm talking about golf, I realize I'm the hippie at an NRA convention. As long as I mind my manners, they won't stop talking to me, and that's really all I want. I have been a golf fan for nearly 50 years, and I've never heard this subject addressed: Why do we think we are better than we are? This week, I started out with four straight pars. For someone who can't consistently break 90, that's not bad. I thought I was on my way to 85, which is my goal by the end of summer. I finished the round 30 strokes over par. It all went to hell. I thought I was better than I am. Par is a stupid goal for me. Par for me should be one shot over what the expert golfer would shoot on a given hole. Why, oh, why did I try to hit close to that flag over the the water? Why do I think I am better than I am?? Why am I sailing blissfully down the river Denial? Golf--It's a humbling game.

Welcome to the infirmary. There is no known cure for the golf bug. Everyone here has it, and associates best with people that have it. Other diseases, like leprosy, are quarantined. We call it a golf course. You've found the right place for treatment. Your story, I wrote the same thing two years ago. I played when I was a kid, in college, and then started again, about 40 years later. I have walked your path, however, when I decided I really wanted to learn to play golf. So I started the learning curve you've started. I'm not an expert on anything but going from awful to not quite so bad. I'll simply give you my experience. There are others who will tell you to make a swing video and post it, and if you don't do this within the next few days, you aren't going to progress as fast as you might. These people are really good at analyzing swings.

Thanks, man. Lots of good advice. I've been watching M1's on eBay. There was a set of 5-PW from a private seller that got no bids. It was relisted and for the heck of it, I put in the min bid of $285. And I got it for that. Not really intended to, but there it is. At least they are a hundred cheaper than the next lowest, and way under what they usually go for, even used. (I've been at least one rev behind on everything since early PCs, for value.) I like the idea of thinking about the clubs the way you do. Wedges and woods are separate from irons in my bag, and My L2 putter ain't goin' nowhere! Off to Amazon for some new grips, as I need midsize. Standard grips roll around in my hands. For about $400, I get a new-to-me set of clubs and perhaps another 20 yards of distance. I think I got a bargain. Thanks for the reply

Thanks in advance for all opinions. I appreciate the advice. Problem: My much used and beloved Ping i3s need to be retired to the back of the garage. (Donated to Opportunity Village.) For the past two years, they've been on the receiving end of thousands of practice hits, mishits, reshafting, regripping, shots from bare ground, weeds and the waste areas filled with tiny rocks that are diamond-hard. They've done their job well. I can hit them pretty well now, under 90. Solution A: After trying lots of clubs, I found the Ping G to perform best for me, until I hit Taylormade's M1. Not the M2, which I didn't care for--hitting rocks--and the 2018 clubs that felt the same way. Mishit blades, if you know what I mean? But I absolutely fell in love with the M1. It barely outperformed, for me, the Ping G. I hit a 7i carry 160, routinely coming to a stop around 170. This is a 20 yard improvement over my i3 7i. The Ping G carried closer to 150, but felt like nothing on most hits. Same with the M1, perhaps not quite as unrock-like. Ball there. Ball gone. It was close. Solution B: New or used? I'm on a very, very tight budget. I'm the guy who paid $15 for the round you paid $65, so you know what I'm talking about. B-a: How many clubs? I have a Ping 50 degree wedge that is my go-to club for everything. I can live with the Ping i3 SW. I have a Calloway 3 and 4 hybrid that I can hit a ton, but I hit my i3 5i 170. I have a significant gap between 180 and 200. I don't have a 5w and I have good above that. There's a difference between pre-owned 5-PW and new 3-AW, enough to pay for new mid-size grips and most of my summer golfing. I'll figure it out, but I appreciate the advice. I still have to hit both steel and graphite to compare, which doesn't do much to the price of used, but adds another hundo to the credit card. Such a dilemma, but a fun one to have. Thanks. Don

Lessons are worth the $$. Then, it's reps. Lots and lots of repetitions. There is no substitute for the experience of swinging a club (in my case, a seven iron), over and over. Improvement can come quickly with diligent practice, but it takes thousands of reps to groove the swing. Don't forget to spend time on the short game and putting, too. It's a full course game, in the air and on the ground.

Yeah, kinda too late at that point. I appreciate this thread so much. My two year journey so far has really been about figuring out the left wrist. (And hips). I simply break down on the left side. Perhaps cupping, perhaps firing too early, not relaxing, not pausing, the list goes on and on. A work in progress. I have nothing to contribute except as an audience. I'm extremely right handed. It's been tough strengthening the left side, but I sure have had lots of help here. Thanks.

Undiscussed is early release of the club, too. This past week, I ran across a video online which provided the key for me. Last week was step one. I stopped using a strong grip, and returned to a neutral grip, because a coaching video suggested this might be the cause of my inconsistency. Then, the second video coached me not to hinge my wrists or try to exaggerate the lag. I use a forward press on my irons, which aligns my wrist and sets it. Then, I'm practicing taking away the club with the wrist remaining straight through the swing. I'm still not sure if the clubface is closed at the nine o'clock position of the takeaway, or the toe of the club is vertical. I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to rotate my club by turning the left forearm or elbow to get more bow and bring the club inside. I'm getting closer. Yesterday was the best ball-striking round I've ever played. I hit some really good shots and was even for the first five holes, a total first. A few more thousand swings and I might finally have a useful golf swing which has been a two-year goal. Videos are a remarkable tool, as well as video of your own swing. I didn't know this, but it probably contributed to my struggles with a strong grip. Now, to fix that early release right before the bottom. 😊

Ah, funny, because this is EXACTLY what I'm working on. Maybe you could elaborate, because I think it's the complete opposite, the same as the photo below. This shows a bowed wrist, not a cupped wrist. This photo would be my goal, not my current problem. I've been working on the fix by starting the backswing in a flat-wrist position and trying to increase the extension at the top. I release too early, which leads to the cupped wrist, which then becomes a bad and inconsistent result. Cupped wrist is a cause of bad golf. Or, in my own case, the cause of the cupped wrist is a weak left side. It's taken me nearly two years to work this out to this point. Taking the club back without hinging the wrist is what's working for me right now. A few thousand more swings and I might be able to put more lag into the strike, with more extension. Maybe. I believe this is where good golf separates from bad golf. It's bad on the range, but even worse on the course where the worst don't even warm up before they play.

Learn to breathe.

How often did Michael Jordan think about cheeseburgers, Las Vegas, or sex during a game? How often did he think about these driving around town? Every star has the physical talent. Only those with superior focus--without the mind wandering--those are the superstars. How often do you drive across town and wonder whether that last light was red or green? Because the course isn't the practice area. The ball doesn't know this. Sobering advice.

The law of average says at some point we have to agree on something. Well, I agree with you, if we assume that someone can hit a golf ball the same way every single time. They said Ben Hogan had a problem with tournaments. For the final three rounds he had to hit out of his divots from the first round. lol I don't believe I'll get there, do you? If so, then it would be physical, all the way. Best wishes, from across the chasm.

Before I read everyone else's comments, my dos centavos. I am a practicing Buddhist meditator. I spent almost a year in a monastery, in robes. I have spent a lot of time focusing my mind, training it, observing it, trying to understand it. I don't know many golfing monks, so I have a unique perspective. I have some bonafides. My first reaction to this interesting question was it's impossible to know. The swing, the pitch, the putt, happen too fast for the mind to follow. You may tell your left wrist to pronate, but you can't know it as the club connects. So it's physical. But. I'm finding my biggest problem to be my own personal demon--attention deficit disorder. I am practiced at practicing concentration. If I could concentrate for longer periods, my meditation practice would be far, far stronger. I have that limitation. I know it well. I had ADD long before there was an acronym. Concentration is the reason some are super-stars, and some never fulfill their potential. Nicklaus, Woods, Ruth, Bird all had the best concentration of all time in their sports. Brady's intensity is off the charts. I am unable to concentrate through an entire shot sequence, from forming a mental picture of the shot, to practice swings to get the feel, to grip/setup/alignment/aiming, to finishing high. On the course. Shot after shot. Ninety times in four hours. For someone who has senior-level ADD, fahgeddaboudit. It ain't going to happen. So, I guess. Mental.