TPI Graphs Confusion - Need Help

[Warlock]

Erik 

I found the below TPI AMM graph from one of your old posts in 2016   and its says that the +y axis for the 'Trail Wrist Angles ' is showing Pronation. Further there is a Kelvin Miyahiri you-tube that implies the same (see link below).

But then I was watching Jon Sinclair video with Larry Rinker (link below) and if you fast forward to 25:11  he shows  'Lead and Trail Wrist Angle'  graphs where the +y axis are both supination. He says that both forearms are supinating just after release .

I found this confusing , so I contacted the TPI Customer Services about this and got an email response from Dr Greg Rose who said:

"Not sure why your software is saying pronation. That is definitely a mistake and should say Supination. The graph clearly shows supination and no golfer is 34 degrees pronated at impact 
Not sure what version of software you are using and I know that AMM is no longer around - but that is wrong!"

 

So was the AMM  Trail Wrist Graph that you posted (and its table below) showing pronation in the +y axis in error? 

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Edited December 12, 2020 by iacas
embedded videos

[iacas]

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. The lead wrist and the trail wrist behave in opposite ways: if one is supinating, one is pronating.

Could you be more specific with what you're asking?

[Warlock]

Hi Erik

I was asking whether there was an error in the TPI 3D AMM reporting of  'Trail Wrist Angles' that you previously posted (copy above).

In fact , I've actually received another reply below from Dr Greg Rose (TPI) and he now confirms that there is/was an error.

""we helped AMM produce the avatar and gave them the data sets to use for normals on their software. It just looks like the report feature had the wrong unit (using a P instead of a S) in the report. But the graph looks good."

So it seems that Jon Sinclair is correct , there is some dual supination of the forearms happening after release (although some of the TPI 'Trail Wrist Angle' reports are labelling the Supination 'S' as Pronation 'P'.  

[iacas]

  On 12/12/2020 at 2:51 PM, Warlock said:

I was asking whether there was an error in the TPI 3D AMM reporting of  'Trail Wrist Angles' that you previously posted (copy above).

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It's not my graph. Why didn't you ask in the topic where it was posted?

  On 12/12/2020 at 1:02 AM, Warlock said:

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At impact, the lead wrist shows 55° or so of supination (palm rotating up), and the trail wrist shows 36° of pronation (palm down).

So, what's your question?

  On 12/12/2020 at 1:02 AM, Warlock said:

He says that both forearms are supinating just after release .

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I don't think that's really possible. The hands are linked - if the left one is rotating palm up, the right one is rotating palm down.

Note that I used my estimates of the numbers from the graphs. I see the actual numbers below, and should have used those.

P.S. You also need to consider the original measurements. For example, the trail wrist is 54° P at address, and at impact is 34° P, which means it's 17° "S" relative to where it started. You have to consider your frame of reference when you're talking about these things. Some will set address at 0° and show the change, others will set some external frame of reference as 0°.

P.P.S. As you've noted AMM stuff isn't used these days, so I haven't really considered them in some time. I think what I've said here is true and accurate, but if I've forgotten how they worked or what their frames of reference were or something… sorry.

P.P.P.S. Still not sure what your overall… well, what are you wanting to know?

[Warlock]

I didn't post on the original thread  as I didn't think it had any relevance to my real question which is about the possibility of dual supination of the forearms after P5.5  (ie. approximately when the lead wrist starts to ulnar deviate). 

When I looked at the above graphs on the Sandtrap thread and also that Kelvin Miyahiri you-tube video , it gave me the impression that the lead forearm was supinating while the trail forearm was pronating just after P5.5 .  But after seeing the same type of graphs on the John Sinclair video (which I assume were retrieved from his TPI 3D AMM database of pga pro golfers) , he implied that the +y axis in the 'Trail Wrist Angle' graphs were measuring supination (not pronation) and that both forearms are supinating after P5.5.  He also suggested that dual forearm supination was happening in the downswing in this video below.

http://Chris Como and Jon Sinclair echoing my findings on supination - YouTube

With the help of Dr Greg Rose I think I have enough information to now decide that the original TPI 3D AMM graphs had a report bug and that 'Trail Wrist' pronation actually meant supination. 

John Sinclair is claiming that dual forearm supination is actually happening in pga pro tour swings and here is a graph below showing graphs for the Trail forearm.

 

I've no more questions but if you disagree with the above, I'd welcome your opinions.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Warlock

[iacas]

  On 12/13/2020 at 2:22 AM, Warlock said:

With the help of Dr Greg Rose I think I have enough information to now decide that the original TPI 3D AMM graphs had a report bug and that 'Trail Wrist' pronation actually meant supination. 

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I don't think you can say that for sure, but whatever. We're past the days of AMM, so…