Obama Make A Difference?

[mako224]

I'm not saying that you're incorrect however, statistically in developed countries where inflation is not an issue, people eat more during tough economic times. Look at alcohol and fast food sales they are on the rise. As far as "typing on a golf forum," the Admins created this area for off topic banter so I don't see a problem with the discussion at hand. It's been pretty civil until the opening comment of your last post.

He is comparing this to the great depression. That is ludicrous. Durring the great depression poor people starved. People had to go to soup kitchens for a slice of bread and some soup. People lived in shanty touns and under rail bridges. The typing on a golf forum comment had nothing to do with weather or not this section is for politics or such. My point about posting on a golf forum is that we are all sitting behind the screens of $1,000 computers hooked up to $50 to $100 per month high speed internet connections. We are on a golf forum wasting productive time talking about another expensive luxury....golf. Just think if you lived in a country with REAL economic misery where you had to actually work hard in order to provide the bare essentials for survival. We live in one of the most if not the most affluent country in the world. Hopefully when Obama is thru his 4 years we will still be a free country. Remember his rhetoric. He is gunning for all of us country club bluebloods. He resents us and he wants to spread our wealth to people who won't work to achieve the things we have worked hard for. The guy is a closet communist. I seriously hope Obama does not make a difference. The change he wants is not change we need. Hopefully congress will bottleneck everything he tries over the next 4 years. Gridlock in Washington is a good thing.

[EquipmentJunkie]

He is comparing this to the great depression. That is ludicrous.

Well for one thing most of us were not alive at that time so it isn't logical to ask us to recall "how it was." Second, from a numbers stand point only this is the largest slowing of the US economy since the great depression so I think it is logical to look back on that for reflection.

Durring the great depression poor people starved. People had to go to soup kitchens for a slice of bread and some soup. People lived in shanty touns and under rail bridges.

I fail to see why harder economic times in the past prohibit the OP from speaking about ill economic times now. This distraction cheapens your post.

The typing on a golf forum comment had nothing to do with weather or not this section is for politics or such. My point about posting on a golf forum is that we are all sitting behind the screens of $1,000 computers hooked up to $50 to $100 per month high speed internet connections. We are on a golf forum wasting productive time talking about another expensive luxury....golf. Just think if you lived in a country with REAL economic misery where you had to actually work hard in order to provide the bare essentials for survival. We live in one of the most if not the most affluent country in the world.

It is illogical to look at a small golf forum on the internet and use that a basis to judge the economic state of the American people. Furthermore if you think this is a waste of time you can set an example for everyone by not participating.

Hopefully when Obama is thru his 4 years we will still be a free country. Remember his rhetoric. He is gunning for all of us country club bluebloods. He resents us and he wants to spread our wealth to people who won't work to achieve the things we have worked hard for. The guy is a closet communist.

I'm not here to have a party war (as I'm not even a Democrat) and your rhetoric is so full of logical fallacies I would not be aware of where to start.

I seriously hope Obama does not make a difference. The change he wants is not change we need. Hopefully congress will bottleneck everything he tries over the next 4 years. Gridlock in Washington is a good thing.

Ditto on my above comment as well. There really is not a need for such a bitter attitude here. If you want people to give credence to your views then you need to stop with the fallacies and insults. Good luck.

[zeg]

He is comparing this to the great depression. That is ludicrous.

Nothing about "worst x since y" says that x is equal to y. It's just the closest since... Hopefully things don't reach the level they got to then, but remember, the Great Depression lasted a long time. It wasn't the case that one day the market tanked and the next day there were shanty towns and bread lines. There was a period of decline between the two. If you'd like to wait until we get there before you start trying to turn the economy around, well, I'm glad you're not in charge.

The guy is a closet communist.

Umm, ok. Why don't you go read some books and come back when you understand what Communism actually is. Here's a hint: it's not socialism.

[mako224]

Do you remember the Carter years?????? They were far worse than this. I would say the end of the Bush the 1st presidency was just as bad as well. Im sure economic times durring the 2nd world war and Korea were much tougher than what we have now. The economy goes up and down. this is just another bump in the road. All the government can do is hurt the economy. Get the government out of the way and this economy will take off.

Look at the wealth around you. Things aren't so bad.

[EquipmentJunkie]

Do you remember the Carter years?????? They were far worse than this. I would say the end of the Bush the 1st presidency was just as bad as well. Im sure economic times durring the 2nd world war and Korea were much tougher than what we have now. The economy goes up and down. this is just another bump in the road. All the government can do is hurt the economy. Get the government out of the way and this economy will take off.

Awesome logic!!! "X now is not as bad as Y in the past so X is actually good!" Ignorance is bliss folks.

[mako224]

Thats not the point JA. This is nothing like the great depression as some would have you blieve. Remember the bump in the road when the dot com bubble burst?? This one is only slightly worse. This is not, I repeat, NOT the worst economy since the great depression. Not even close.

[mako224]

Umm, ok. Why don't you go read some books and come back when you understand what Communism actually is. Here's a hint: it's not socialism.

It seems you are willing to admit here that he is a socialist but not willing to admit that he is a communist. I know the difference between the two but for the sake of this discussion lets move past that. I think hes a communist, you think hes a socialist. Ok. I'm just curious if you are willing to admit that both socialism and communism are bad and that both go against everything this great nation was built on???

[PEZGolf]

Do you remember the Carter years?????? They were far worse than this. I would say the end of the Bush the 1st presidency was just as bad as well. Im sure economic times durring the 2nd world war and Korea were much tougher than what we have now. The economy goes up and down. this is just another bump in the road. All the government can do is hurt the economy. Get the government out of the way and this economy will take off.

533,000 people lost their jobs in the United States last month. 10% of all homeowners with mortgages are now in default. AT&T; and Dupont are firing people left and right, in the thousands. The Big 3 auto companies may end up being one (the new American Motors) or none. I have looked around me. If this is not bad, then I would hate to see bad----what is tthe definition of "bad" -----25% unemployment rate; highest personal and business bankruptcies in history; Dow Jones at 5,000. Medical insurance cancelled for many, and not just Archway, the cookie people? Maybe it is time to move to another country. Poland is doing so much better than England and Ireland that the Polish skilled workers who went there are going back home. My grandparents came from southern Poland. It is sounding better all the time.

[PEZGolf]

One thing about Tim Geithner that worries me. The "Wall Street Journal" reported that he does not like Sheila Bair, head of the FDIC, because she is very independent and not a team player. She has taken many constructive actions, as an activist regulator, including the takeover of Washington Mutual. She does look out for the best interests of her agency in terms of minimizing losses, and that is her job. I hope this is not going to be a turf war, where the best interests of the country take second place to personal rivalries. Her term of office expires in 2011, so she would have to be forced out.

[zeg]

It seems you are willing to admit here that he is a socialist but not willing to admit that he is a communist.

No, the whole idea that his plans equate to blanket socialism is ridiculous. As I recall, the huge difference between Obama's tax plan and McCain's amounted to about 3% (36 vs 39%, I think) to the upper bracket. If that's all the difference between capitalism and socialism, then ...

I'm not in any place to "admit" that communism/socialism are bad. Personally, I think Communism as it's been implemented has demonstrated itself to be ineffective due to fatally flawed assumptions about human nature. Socialism, on the other hand, has been shown to work effectively in a number of countries, including the United States . Pure capitalism will utterly fail. The United States has never (to my knowledge) subscribed to pure capitalism. Personally, I think socialized medicine would be a HUGE improvement over the joke that is medical insurance in the US. It's not the worst system in the world, but among developed nations, the US health system is in pretty poor condition (and soundly outperformed by a number of much more socialist nations). I think the best solution is to use various techniques in the niches they're good for. Generally, I think business is suited by capitalism because of the competition it encourages. However, I don't think issues such as health care are well served by capitalism because they simply fail to encourage the good sort of competition. Furthermore, I feel that some degree of socialism is necessary to support folks who, for various reasons, are unable to contribute in such a way that they'd survive in a purely capitalist system. Some people due to injury, poor childhood, or just bad luck, will find themselves on the outside -- I believe there needs to be a safety net that ensures they have a chance to recover. This is a socialist idea, but is necessary to have a workable capitalist system. Pure capitalism would leave far too many people out to rot and fail. About health care, here's the problem with capitalism (or the quasi-capitalist system that is in vogue in the US anyway). You have insurers and you have health care providers. The problem is that the insurers have absolutely NO incentive to provide any health care to people who need health care. The best model for a health insurance company is one that insures only people who don't get sick, and dumps you as soon as you do. In a pure capitalist system, that's pretty close to what'd happen. In our hybrid system, there are rules about how a company can ditch a subscriber, and group health care through employers helps, but the fact is that neither of these is a capitalist solution. These are socialism creeping in to fix a pretty fundamental problem with capitalism. So, anyway, I think this great nation was built on freedom and the pursuit of happiness. I don't think that is contradicted by socialism, and in many cases, I believe a reasonable dose of socialism will further those goals. I've not heard anything from Obama that amounts to a degree of socialism that anyone outside the *extremely* right-leaning US would be considered socialism (face it, the US is very right-wing compared to at least European nations), so I don't think there's any risk that we'll turn into a predominantly socialist economic system any time soon.

[mako224]

The whole direction the federal government is heading scares the poo out of me. I liked Bush and still like alot of what he accomplished. I was completely dissatisfied with all of the candidates in the primaries from both parties. The media chose this election. We ended up with a choice between two lousy candidates and we ended up with the worst of the two. I voted for a third party candidate. I just couldn't hold my nose and vote for either of the two party candidates. I hope Obama does well but I am not optomistic based on his past voting record, his own statements and his past associations.

[paperclip]

I think the short answer is "not immediately, if at all". Once he finishes with the bad precedents of bad bailouts, let's see what his tax and spend policies are

[PEZGolf]

Here is a difference that is important: George W. Bush appointed Donald H. Rumsfeld Secretary of Defense, and Rumsfeld thought he knew more than the Generals in how to "win" in Iraq. Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki told the US Congress in 2003 that we needed to send more troops to Iraq. Enraged at Shinseki"s "betrayal" of the Rumsfeld Doctrine of "war on the cheap", Shinseki was forced out as Chief of Staff.

History proved that Shinseki was right (look at what has happened since the "surge" and General Patreaus' adoption of the Shinseki Doctrine). Meantime, after the Republicans lost control of the US Senate two years ago because of the public's dissatisfaction with results in Iraq, Rumsfeld was "shown the door" by President Bush as the "sacrificial lamb" to public opinion. As a result, Rumsfeld failed to break the record of longest service in the position of Secretary of Defense---a record held by the Rumsfeld look-alike and think-alike, Robert S. McNamara, who kept assuring President Lyndon Johnson that we were "winning" the War in Vietnam because of the body counts. We were killing 10 or more Vietcong for every American Marine or Army infantryman killed by the other side so that meant that we were "winning", even though the Generals in the field knew better and were told to shut up.

So now, in an official announcement on the anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor, President-elect Obama has selected RETIRED Army General Eric Shinkseki to be the Secretary for Veterans Affairs!! Donald Rumsfeld, you are gone, in disgrace, and Shinseki is back, with high honors!! Here is what the retired General said:

"A word to my FELLOW veterans. I will work each and every day to ensure that we are serving you as well as you have served us."

After the disasterous handling of Veterans by the Bush Administration (remember the awful conditions our returning Vets faced at the Walter Reed Hospital?), it is a genuine salute to our men and women who have served to have General Shinseki look out for them now, when they need us to help them in the ways they deserve!!