Shut club face?

[timwalsh300]

I've read a little about this and what it can cause, but I'm not sure I understand...

What does it mean to have a shut club face at the top of the back swing? Can anyone show me a picture?

Tim

[powerfader]

Simple, the toe of the club (according to traditional golf teaching) should be pointing at the ground when you reach the top of the backswing. If the toe is pointing sideways then you have a shut club face, unless you really manipulate your wrist-cock the ball is going to go left (for right handed people).

[timwalsh300]

In Tom Coyne's book "Paper Tiger" he talks about having this problem and he says that it causes him to "block" his shots and push them right...

Tim

[powerfader]

Gosh, not having read his book I can't really comment with any difinitive certainty. But having your clubface shut at the top (which is usually caused by a grip that is too strong) will almost certainly have the clubface closed at impact. So (depending on your swing plane) you'll hit either a pull or a hook. A "block" is caused when the clubhead arrives from the inside (with the intention of hitting a draw or a straight shot) but the clubface is left open. To hit a block when the clubface is shut at the top would require some seriously dodgy wrist action (with almost no release at all). Anyway this is all moot because judging by your picture (I'm assuming that's you) your clubface isn't shut at the top.

[divottool]

Simple, the toe of the club (according to traditional golf teaching) should be pointing at the ground when you reach the top of the backswing. If the toe is pointing sideways then you have a shut club face, unless you really manipulate your wrist-cock the ball is going to go left (for right handed people).

Not exactly right....... if the toe of the club is pointing to the ground at the top of the back swing then the clubface is deemed to be open......if the face is pointing up toward the sky then it is deemed to be closed or shut. To have the face square to your plane the the face should be parallel to your left forearm. Example: Look at recent pictures of Tigers clubface at the top of his driver swing.

[powerfader]

Not exactly right....... if the toe of the club is pointing to the ground at the top of the back swing then the clubface is deemed to be open......if the face is pointing up toward the sky then it is deemed to be closed or shut.

I think we're in total agreement on what a shut clubface at the top is, however you'll notice that I said "traditional" teaching was to have the clubface pointing at the ground (look at Nicklaus and his "golf my way"). It has only been in relatively recent times that this notion has changed somewhat, but for the 20 handicaper I think that its still good advice.

__________________

[iacas]

Simple, the toe of the club (according to traditional golf teaching) should be pointing at the ground when you reach the top of the backswing.

Toe down is a drastically open clubface. It's a cop-out to talk about "traditional" golf teaching - you're setting people up to require great timing not to slice or hook the ball.

If 0° is a club that's horizontal and 90° is toe down (vertical), then somewhere between about 30° and 45° is normal. Kind of depends on the back of your left hand, too (and how upright your swing is). FWIW, toe up at horizontal on the takeaway is an open clubface, too. Should roughly match your spine angle.

[divottool]

Its good advice if you want to hit fades and slices!

Most higher hadicapers will benefit from a face that is closed to some extent.

[powerfader]

Enjoying the heated discussion but if you looked at the context of what I said you would see I was just trying to draw a clearcut distinction between a shut clubface and the traditional golf swing. If you look at 90% of pro's at the top, to the untrained eye it looks like the toe is pointing at the ground, if I over-simplified then I'm sorry but I was trying to explain a concept in the simplest terms possible.

As for it being good advice then I stand by that comment for the high handicaper, being as practically all players in the twenties have "over the top" swings then it would be advisable to avoid a closed face at impact like the plague, plus it will promote a powerful release that will be useful when they fix their swing plane and attempt to draw the ball. In addition it amazes me that so many people talk about the fade as if it is an undesirable thing. We all get a buzz from hitting a lovely high draw but when it comes to consistancy and avoiding disaster shots the fade wins hands down, if Ben Hogan were alive he'd concur.

[timwalsh300]

As for it being good advice then I stand by that comment for the high handicaper, being as practically all players in the twenties have "over the top" swings then it would be advisable to avoid a closed face at impact like the plague, plus it will promote a powerful release that will be useful when they fix their swing plane and attempt to draw the ball. In addition it amazes me that so many people talk about the fade as if it is an undesirable thing. We all get a buzz from hitting a lovely high draw but when it comes to consistancy and avoiding disaster shots the fade wins hands down, if Ben Hogan were alive he'd concur.

For the first couple years I played I always hit a really high fade (err, slice all too often). A few months ago, when I suddenly became able to play more often (i.e. everyday), I decided to fix that. But I guess I overcompensated. Now for the last few weeks I've been battling a miserable low trajectory draw/hook. I can't hit that high fade anymore for the life of me.

This is why I asked the question... thinking that I might have developed a shut club face, based on what Tom Coyne talked about in his book... causing him to come from the inside and push everything right. I'm taking a week off, and then I'm going to take some video of my swing. I guess we'll take a look then. Tim

[powerfader]

From what you're describing I'd agree with your assessment that you have a shut clubface at the top. I'm getting a bit of stick for saying you should have the toe of the club pointing at the ground, so I'll phrase it like this try to get the toe pointing more toward the ground than it is at present. At the range try weaking your grip very slightly (ie turn your hands anti-clockwise) do this incrimentally because a little adjustment makes a big difference.