Provisional ball and water hazards

[pittpanther]

As we said, it was probably a lateral water hazard, giving him the third option: within two club lengths of the point it last crossed the margin of the hazard.

First, I am assuming no drop zone, as the OP would have told us about it...

The OP said the water is behind the green. So any shot from the tee that is long, you go into the water. I'm imagining a lake behind the green. There won't be anyplace on the "green-side" of the water to drop, because it will always be "closer to the hole." I don't see how the "lateral hazard" rules can apply in this case. The hazard does not appear to be "lateral." Something's wrong - it shouldn't be this hard!

[deronsizemore]

First, I am assuming no drop zone, as the OP would have told us about it...

Actually it is possible to drop greenside as it won't always be closer to the hole depending on the placement of the hole. Please see this post from the first page of this thread:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthr...561#post307561

[Fourputt]

Can someone please confirm this as being an exceptable way to play a red staked hazard? I really would like to know. I try my very best to play by the rules and this seems like it would be the best option. As long as I am no closer to the hole and within 2 club lengths of where it went in I am ok, correct?

If the ball is determined to lie in a lateral water hazard (red stakes or lines), then you have several options, none of which includes a provisional ball.

Option 1) Stroke and distance... replay from the original spot. There are times when this is the only reasonable option. Just because it may not be the most desirable doesn't make that any less true. There is nothing in the rules that says that there MUST be other viable options. Option 2) Under penalty of one stroke, draw a line from the hole to the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard and go back on that line away from the hole keeping that point between you and the hole. You can retreat as far as you want without leaving the course. This procedure may not always be possible with a lateral water hazard, which is why there is a 3rd option in such cases. This is also why a hazard may be marked as a lateral hazard even when it does not run parallel to the hole (as in this case where the water is behind the green). Option 3) Again using the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, you may drop within 2 clublengths of that point, not closer to the hole and not in the hazard. The ball must first hit the ground outside of the hazard and must come to rest outside of the hazard. See Rule 20 for dropping and re-dropping procedures. Under this option you may also locate the point equidistant from the hole on the opposite side of the hazard as your reference point. This is not the same as option 1. In this case you are crossing the hazard on an arc that is the same distance from the hole as the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. You then get the same 2 clublength drop area from that point.

That is the most penalizing option and prefer to not have to use it.

As I mentioned above, the Rules of Golf do not care about your preferences.

[tjy355]

Probably the best (worst) option is to drop in front of the hazard, with a 2-stroke penalty. Or, go ahead and hit a provisional once he knew he overshot the green. If he can't find his original ball, the provisional is in play, with a 1-stroke penalty.

Neither of these suggestions conform to the ROG.

[Leftygolfer]

If the ball is determined to lie in a lateral water hazard (red stakes or lines), then you have several options, none of which includes a provisional ball.

I am saying this is the last resort. It would be stupid to use this option if any other would be viable.

[pittpanther]

Neither of these suggestions conform to the ROG.

No kidding! Did you not read my entire posting, where I said "in the real world" these are your best options?

Or would you on a crowded Saturday morning, search for your ball, figure out it's in the water, walk BACK to the tee and hit another shot? In the real world this just doesn't make sense. Not even the pros would do this - someone at the green (a course official, most likely) would radio back "ball's in the water." Tiger's not going to walk to the green and then walk back to the tee. In the real world, hit a provisional.

[Leftygolfer]

No kidding! Did you not read my entire posting, where I said "in the real world" these are your best options?

I did not think you could hit a provisional unless it is lost or OB. If you do it is in play no matter what happened to your first. There has to be a way to drop within two club lengths and no closer to the hole. I have never seen a lateral hazard where this wasn't the case, even over the green or two the side. It might be two inches outside the hazard and vertially sideways.

I would never hit a provisional if A) it is ok B) in a red hazard. If those are the two options only then you are not entitled to a provisional.

[tjy355]

No kidding! Did you not read my entire posting, where I said "in the real world" these are your best options?

I'm sorry but I disagree with your assertion that we ignore the rules for convenience.

The OP said the hazard was RED staked which means in all but the most unusual circumstances, one could drop within 2 club lengths of the point of entry. There is no provisional allowed for a ball that "may be in a hazard." If you drop and hit a second ball, it is in play no matter if you find the original ball. I suggest you stop offering rules advice as it is apparent you know nothing about the rules.

[Fourputt]

Or would you on a crowded Saturday morning, search for your ball, figure out it's in the water, walk BACK to the tee and hit another shot? In the real world this just doesn't make sense. Not even the pros would do this - someone at the green (a course official, most likely) would radio back "ball's in the water." Tiger's not going to walk to the green and then walk back to the tee.

That isn't the real world, it's your own fantasy world.

I'm sorry but I disagree with your assertion that we ignore the rules for convenience.

Gotta agree here. His real world and ours must be quite different. I

have seen pros walk back to the tee (or the previous spot) and play another ball after searching and not finding the ball. And I have done so myself. And I will likely do so again in the future the next time I'm in that situation. I've never been hassled by the players behind me for doing so, because I make a point of keeping up. If I have such a situation and I fall behind, I will take whatever steps are necessary to catch up again. It's not that hard a concept. Most players don't do this by the rules, not because of pace of play, but to avoid the damage to their egos. I just do what has to be done and get on with it.

[Scrape-o-TheClown]

I personally can't remember a time that i have seen a tour player have to walk back to the the tee or spot of previous shot. This isnt becaust they break the rules its because they have a fore caddie that will signal their ball OB or signal them when a stroke and distance penalty will be required. In this case they would have taken the appropriate drop and would not have walked back.

[pittpanther]

The OP said the hazard was RED staked which means in all but the most unusual circumstances, one could drop within 2 club lengths of the point of entry.

You guys are riding me pretty hard, but that's OK - I can take it.

I am imagining a scenario where you tee off, the ball flights straight over the hole, and into the water. To drop within 2 club lengths, but not closer to the hole, becomes a geometry/trig problem. I would guess the legal drop zone in this instance would be a couple of square inches, if that. And as much as you would want to follow the letter of the law, you would not be able to tell exactly if you were in the correct drop zone or not, unless you measured and did the math. Of course, if your shot went 20 yard to the left of the hole, then into the water, it would be much easier to find the drop zone - just go 2-club lengths further left.

[tjy355]

You guys are riding me pretty hard, but that's OK - I can take it.

It

is a geometry problem. But in all but the most unusual situation, there should be a small sliver of place to drop the ball between the arc that would describe the distance that is no-closer-to-the-hole and the margin of the water hazard. (That is really hard to describe in words ) If you drop on this sliver of safe turf, no matter how small, and it rolls back into the hazard or closer to the hole, you can redrop. If it happens again you can place the ball. Although not inconceivable, it would be indeed an oddly shaped hazard margin that would prevent a drop as described above.

[Fourputt]

It

Not as odd as you might think. For a hazard margin marked with a circular line with the hole in such a position that the arc of the 2 clublength drop area is never outside of the hazard line, then the 2 clublength option doesn't exist on that side of the hazard. You may still be able to use the 2nd provision for Rule 26-1c and find the point on the far side of the hazard that is equidistant from the hole. If not, and if there is no designated drop area, the only remaining choice is to replay the previous shot and add an additional stroke.

[Scrape-o-TheClown]

I personally can't remember a time that i have seen a tour player have to walk back to the the tee or spot of previous shot. This isnt becaust they break the rules its because they have a fore caddie that will signal their ball OB or signal them when a stroke and distance penalty will be required. In this case they would have taken the appropriate drop and would not have walked back.

Well just as I said this I went home last night and was watching a little bit of the European Tour and saw a guy that snatched one way left into some tall grass. About 15 people looked for the 5 minutes and no one found it. So they picked him up in an officials cart and took him back to the tee. So i stand corrected, but it doesnt happen much.

[mruseless]

Thanks everyone!
In thinking about everyone's answers, and the hole I played, I probably would have had a sliver of area no closer to the hole, but within 2 clublengths from the point of entry into the hazard. The hole, IIRC, was cut on the front left, so the arc defining "no closer to the hole" would have come out of the hazard as some have speculated.

This has been a great thought exercise, and will really help me in the future!

[M2R]

I believe that's incorrect. In order to be allowed to play a provisional, there should be evidence the ball will be lost (or OB). It seems likely that the ball would either be: a) found in the grass behind the green, or b) not found, in which case you can be virtually certain that the ball was in the hazard.

Yes that's probably true, my logic was a bit imprecise. I probably should have said "of the options available proceeding under 26-1 was not one of them".

I also made an assumption (without basis) that the water hazard was (or may have been) lined with tall grass, reeds and weeds leading up to it (as most are where I play). If you know the bank to the hazard is closely mown it doesn't make sense to hit a provisional. If the hazard is known to be lined with vegetation that produces lost balls, I still think a provisional is reasonable. If the nature of the vegetation leading up to the hazard is unknown (as it seemed to be by the OP) I'm not so sure what is correct but I would still hit a provisional unless the other hazards I had observed up to that point were cleared up to the margin.

[Fourputt]

Yes that's probably true, my logic was a bit imprecise. I probably should have said "of the options available proceeding under 26-1 was not one of them".

The hazards on my home course have all the high native grass nearby included within the margin of the hazard so that if the ball is not found, it can be reasonably assumed that it is in the hazard. That helps to eliminate any doubt, and that is what the USGA recommends in such cases. The rough is mowed to about 2 inches right up to the margin lines, then the native grass can be anywhere from 6 inches to more than 2 feet, but the deep grass is all in the hazard so you can usually proceed under Rule 26-1c and take the 2 clublength drop if the ball can't be found.