Tobacco Road

[iacas]

I saw this quote in another thread and it's yet another in a long list of comments of this type that I simply don't understand:

  ttee9 said:

Tobacco Road (bring your A+ game and then some)

The course has 100-yard-wide fairways (in some spots, in others it "pinches" in to 50+). It's 100% pure target golf with a whole lot of visual, albeit extra and way off to the side - flair. It's circus golf at its finest - distract and confuse.

If you know your carry distances, if you know where to aim, it's one of the easiest golf courses in the world. If you can hit an average sized green and not leave yourself on the wrong tier, the greens aren't complex.

I've said and will say again: the course is one on which I think it's pretty easy to score if you can avoid temptation. It's a great course to take people to for their first time, but… if you're into shooting a good score and understand the proper strategy, it's not a difficult course at all.

I found all the blind shots contributed to long rounds (5.5 hours) without adding much value - there are enough blind shots that golfers have to walk ahead, walk back, re-check their line… check to see if the group ahead has moved out of the way…

Everyone should play it once or two or three times. I can't see it being a course you'd want to play 30+ times, though. Unless maybe you just really like going for some of the crazy shots you can find out there?

My opinion on Tobacco Road with one person led to a falling out. He writes that I'd be one of those "unimaginative and disgruntled players" who unfairly brand "The Road" with the stigma of being contrived… yet it is: how much dirt was pushed around to create Tobacco Road? Look up the definition of "contrived" now, please. That doesn't make it "bad" — it's just the definition of the word.

The fact that it's target golf - and not particularly difficult target golf at that - is backed up by the fact that the course rating tops out at 73.2 for the longest tees and drops to below par - 70.8 - for the next ones forward. Sure, the slope is high - 150 and 142 - but that's because the bogey golfer is not gonna carry a lot of the things he needs to carry (bogey golfer = 200 yards with his drives by definition).

Some of y'all have played it. What do you think? Instead of just parroting what you've heard others say, take a good honest hard look and let me know what you think.

P.S. I keep hearing that you either love it or you hate it, and I don't feel either of those things. I love taking first-timers there, but I don't hate it. I don't love it. I think it's a good but not great golf course.

[FAHooGolfs]

  iacas said:

Some of y'all have played it. Seriously, honestly, what do you think? Instead of just parroting what you've heard others say, take a good honest hard look and let me know what you think.

I don't think you're all that off-base in your opinion of the course... perhaps a bit over-zealous, but not off-base. I've played The Road 3 times (never more than once in a year just because I don't get down there that much) and I really do enjoy it, if for no other reason than its complete uniqueness and utter contrast to its Pinehurst / Pine Needles neighbors down the road.

All of the things you said are right though. Yes, it's contrived. Yes, it's target golf. Yes, there's a clown's mouth or two on the course. However, the fact that it's so over-the-top different from any other course you get to play is what I think makes it fun. And the fact that you really don't HAVE TO have your A+ game is what makes the course enjoyable time after time... if you had to have your A+ game, no one would go back because the course would be impossible. I happen to like every Mike Strantz course I've played (Stonehouse, Royal New Kent, Caledonia, Tobacco Road, Tot Hill Farm) but I fully recognize that it's not everyone's cup of tea. That said, I know people who hated Pinehurst #2 and thought it was boring. My point is that different people have different opinions and I think that's about the only thing you can say with regards to Tobacco Road.

  iacas said:

The course has 100-yard-wide fairways (in some spots, in others it "pinches" in to 50+). It's 100% pure target golf with a whole lot of visual, albeit extra and way off to the side - flair. It's circus golf at its finest - distract and confuse.

While I much prefer traditional old-style courses (Spyglass, Pinehurst, etc) over courses like Tobacco Road, The Road is still one of my favorite courses just because of its uniqueness as I mentioned above, and the fact that I like to spice it up a bit sometimes and play something different.

  iacas said:

If you know your carry distances, if you know where to aim, it's one of the easiest golf courses in the world. If you can hit an average sized green and not leave yourself on the wrong tier, the greens aren't complex.

Just playing devil's advocate a bit, but isn't that pretty much the game of golf boiled down to its simplest form - positioning yourself for the next shot and the best chance to score? Isn't that really the only reason to continue playing a course time and time again?

[iacas]

  FAHooGolfs said:

Just playing devil's advocate a bit, but isn't that pretty much the game of golf boiled down to its simplest form - positioning yourself for the next shot and the best chance to score? Isn't that really the only reason to continue playing a course time and time again?

Most courses don't have 100-yard-wide fairways that let you recover - sometimes quite easily - from an otherwise HORRENDOUS shot.

I played Mid Pines the day after I played Tobacco Road and the contrast in styles (Donald Ross) was evident (duh, right?). Strantz greens are more dramatic in one side or two sides, but more forgiving on the correct sides. Ross greens are more severe from any angle at which you'd miss the green. And those "good spots" to miss account for about 10% of the area around the green.

Ross's doglegs were more interesting. Ross's use of bunkers was more interesting, etc. Ross didn't design to visually impress, he designed to test your golf game, and while I realize it can often be a fine line, I think the line is never thicker than between Pine Needles (which we played in last year's Newport Cup) and Tobacco Road.

The distinction is clear in my head, but it's one of those topics that may not come out as I wish to say it. Let me put it another way:
- Pine Needles: harsh punishments for small misses by better players without being unduly severe for beginners.
- Tobacco Road: exactly the opposite.

[FAHooGolfs]

  iacas said:

The distinction is clear in my head, but it's one of those topics that may not come out as I wish to say it.

No, I think the distinction comes across perfectly, and you're absolutely right on top of that.

My point, which also may have not come across very clearly, is that I appreciate Tobacco Road for what it is and I enjoy my time while I'm there. That being said, if you told me I had to choose 1 course to play for the rest of my life and it was between Tobacco Road and Mid Pines, well... I'd pick Mid Pines every time.

[xian]

I have never played the course and have no opinion on the topic, but I thought people might be interested in this link:

https://golfclubatlas.com/countries/tobacco-road-nc-usa/

[ttee9]

  iacas said:

Most courses don't have 100-yard-wide fairways that let you recover - sometimes quite easily - from an otherwise HORRENDOUS shot.

...... You've got to be kidding .. Mid Pines..?!? There's 41ish supurb courses in and around Pinehurst and you picked Mid Pines ....? Now, I can see if you might have said the Legacy, the Carolina, Mid South or the National because of their course design, or even one of the Pinehurst courses ... But Mid Pines.?? ... my girlfriend shot an 82 there - and she shoots from the mens whites.! Cedar Point has more intrigue and imagination than Mid Pines ..l.o.l... Eric, we need to get you out more .... we can always call ahead for EMS when you start down the Trent Jones Golf Trail in Alabama .....

[SheriffBooth]

Count me in the group that thinks Pine Needles and #2 are two of the best tracks on the planet and courses like Tobacco Road are sideshows. I don't really care for any course that you NEED a book in order to play - I love the older courses that just say "Here I am, give it your best shot."

[ragontona]

Tobacco Road is what it is -- an interesting layout that's fun to play. Yeah, it's got pretty big landing areas, and the greens are nothing special (but in great shape), but I think the main reason it's there is to offer an alternative to the traditional courses 30 minutes down the road on Route 1. Mike Strantz was wanting to screw with your mind... make you think that the shot is harder than it really is. Whiten discussed this in his review of the course... the first time he played it, he didn't like it. But then he realized what the course was about, and he changed his mind.

I kinda like the Mike Strantz designs, but you're right, I'd definitely choose a Ross course any day of the week.

[flap]

Have not played The Road but have played several Strantz courses in Myrtle ie Caladonia,Tru Blue,Tigers Eye and they are Great courses and definitly not Tricked up and not Easy at all.

[iacas]

  ttee9 said:

...... You've got to be kidding .. Mid Pines..?!?

It was inexpensive. It was also one of the oldest, untouched Ross courses in the country.

Besides, I never said it was super or anything, just that the contrast in styles was evident on every shot, at every turn, etc.

[iacas]

  flap said:

Have not played The Road but have played several Strantz courses in Myrtle ie Caladonia,Tru Blue,Tigers Eye and they are Great courses and definitly not Tricked up and not Easy at all.

The rub on Strantz, so to speak, is that he seems to have built subtle courses in a flashy, ritzy place (Myrtle) and wacked-out crazy courses (T Road, Tot Hill) in a sedate, quiet golf place (Pinehurst).

So, Caledonia, etc. are not like Tot Hill and T. Road.

[FAHooGolfs]

  iacas said:

flashy, ritzy place (Myrtle)

Not sure I'd consider Myrtle either... it's a beach and a tourist trap for sure... but Vegas, it ain't. That said, Caledonia and True Blue are down in Pawley's Island which is a good bit more reserved and removed from the touristy Myrtle.

Strant'z two other courses that get a lot of press, Royal New Kent and Stonehouse (moreso), resemble the Tobacco Road style IMO and they're up here in stodgy Colonial Williamsburg. They are, however, both imminently more difficult than Tobacco Road.

[ttee9]

  iacas said:

It was inexpensive. It was also one of the oldest, untouched Ross courses in the country.

... So in other words - boring ....

[DDBowdoin]

I just want to let you all know how lucky you are, I don't have the kind of money now in my life to play such great tracks as I am a college golfer... I play nice tracks during our season but my practice sites are pretty sub par

not to mention I live in MA, anything with a nice track is automatically a historically prestigious Donald Ross private club with a 240 year old club house

in new england we really don't have the new country clubs the rest of the country has, jealous

[iacas]

  ttee9 said:

... So in other words - boring ....

Exactly the opposite. C'mon, a Ross course? Just figuring out the greens is a mental challenge, let alone figuring out how best to approach them, and where to put your drive (and with what shape) to get to that optimal approach area.

And when you miss the green (and you will), how to get up and down of the 50 options available to you. No, not boring. Exactly the opposite.

[ttee9]

  iacas said:

Exactly the opposite. C'mon, a Ross course? Just figuring out the greens is a mental challenge, let alone figuring out how best to approach them, and where to put your drive (and with what shape) to get to that optimal approach area.

... Your missing the point .. nobody is knocking Ross or his design .. he's built some wonderful courses ...

But in an area that has 40+ golf courses, Mid Pines is only average ... it reminds me of the 40 courses around me. That said .. here's one we played last week when we were in South Carolina ... Tucked away like a diamond, five of the back nine are played over water: http://www.walkergolfcourse.com

[iacas]

  ttee9 said:

But in an area that has 40+ golf courses, Mid Pines is only average.

Again, it was the cheap one of the bunch. And one at which I could take a caddy. That's all.

[WorkerOfTheBall]

Iacas,

What an excellent review on some popular courses in the NC sandhills. I believe for the most part you were very accurate with the reviews and agree with your overall sentiments.

"The Pit" is a course everyone should play at least once. It is a different type of setup than your normal 'parkland' 18 and simply something you will never forget. This doesn't mean it is a great course ...but merely something a bit different.

Mid-Pines is a more traditional setup. It is along the lines of the Pinehurst/Pine Needles layouts. Classic, no trickery (besides the reverse-bowl-greens) and right there in front of you! You definitely hit this review 'flush'. The course is VERY well maintained and I agree, can definitely be longer in length. Think Ross and you have a good idea of this design.

Tobacco Road, the epitome of "love and hate"! I have played there more times than I can count ....guests either love the setup with all its trickery, blind shots and unusual views, or feel its a waste of money, time and agronomy efforts. Overall, a very short course with intimidating tee shots and unfair approach shots. I do feel after playing 'The Road' a few times one can start to appreciate the layout a bit more .....

Well done and very accurate reviews Iacas!

Cheers!
Doug