How much rotation on the backswing???

[timastyle]

I had the fortune of getting to play a round and get lessons from Vince Howell (Long Drive Champ). With that said, he told me that I am not completing my shoulder rotation and that I would get much more out of my shots by completing my shoulder rotation on my backswing. Now I've just read Hogan's and with having my right knee bent and facing in a little, I feel like I can't make a complete shoulder rotation. Also, when I try and make a full shoulder rotation, I feel like I'm losing sight of the ball and therefore making iffy contact with the ball.

Any suggestions on what may help with making a full shoulder rotation without losing sight of the ball?

[dkinser86]

I've gone by a general rule about a 45* hip turn with a 90* shoulder turn. It's yielded good results for myself. To get this, however, you may have to start some stretching exercises.

[timastyle]

What are some exercises that I can do to improve my stretching?

Generally, when I try and take it back more than 3/4, I start feeling some pain in my left shoulder.

Would me standing too upright be the cause of not seeing the ball when doing a full rotation?

I must say that after some advice from Vince and a day on the range with a 3/4 turn, I am now hitting a nice little draw and have gained about 10 yards or so on each iron. Well, all up to my 6. It seems like I can't hit my 5 and 4 all that far compared to the distances I'm getting with my other clubs. At the range, with Wilson Staff range balls, I was hitting my 58* about 90-95 yards, my PW about 140, but my 5 iron only 180?

[ninetwothree]

I've gone by a general rule about a 45* hip turn with a 90* shoulder turn. It's yielded good results for myself. To get this, however, you may have to start some stretching exercises.

Do you bring your protractor to the golf course?

how do you know if its 45 and 90? that doesn't give anyone much help. knees help hip turn... hip turn helps shoulder turn... left shoulder must move down to get a proper turn. if you aren't flexible, flex the left knee more and straighten the back leg more. this helps the hip turn and tilt and can let the shoulders turn more.

[timastyle]

nine - you mean you don't (although I figured out what he was talking about, sorta)? I don't think my hip turn is an issue, it's getting my shoulders to do a full turn. Basically, my shoulder turn stops as the inside of my left shoulder hits the lefts side of my chin (if that makes sense).

[enduro]

You don't want to get into a situation where you're overturning your hips just to get more shoulders though. You'll lose power and accuracy and introduce a lot of other bad things.

Power from a golf shot comes more from the angle between your hips and shoulders than how much you turn you shoulders. You want to feel tension in your back on the left side (right handed golfer). Watch many of the pros and you'll see they don't rotate the hips a whole lot but they do create angle between them and the shoulders.

If you're long driving maybe there are other considerations but golf isn't a long drive competition. Focus on creating angle between then hips and shoulders and this can be created without much hip rotation. You need some, but it isn't a whole lot. Enough to get the swing coming from the inside and out.

[enduro]

nine - you mean you don't (although I figured out what he was talking about, sorta)? I don't think my hip turn is an issue, it's getting my shoulders to do a full turn. Basically, my shoulder turn stops as the inside of my left shoulder hits the lefts side of my chin (if that makes sense).

And that's where you'd like it to stop. But how much angle is between your hips and shoulder? Can you feel tension in your back?

[shortgamewiz]

Long ball hitters have higher clubhead speeds, so all their clubs go further (stating the obvious there I guess). Full shoulder turn going back is definitely key. I noticed at some point that if I turn my head away I can get a much bigger turn, but I think you're onto that one already. Are you turning through the other way completely as well? 180 isn't really that bad for a 5.. I suspect you're delofting on the shorter irons with your swing and or setup (is ball back with shaft leaning forward at impact?) so in effect turning a pitching wedge into an 8 or 9 iron and that effect decreases as you get to the longer irons, accounting for the discrepancy. How far do you drive? I guess if you really want to go crazy you could get your swing speed measured-- clubhead speed, angles etc. and gauge what your iron distances should be that way. Then again perhaps the issue is that you have a lot of forearm strength and your swing works well and is optimized when youre chopping down, but not as effective sweeping through. If thats the case, then maybe if you think more about sweeping around your body on the longer clubs. Also, maybe think about this.. where does the swing end? I know it sounds crazy but I used to think that the swing ended somewhere after I hit the ball and then the follow through was kind of an after thought, but then at some point I realized that the swing actually ends at the end of the "follow through" and that I should try to accellerate all the way up to that point, even if the club is wrapped around my neck facing the other way (or whereever it ends up). And here's another swing thought that might help .. try only useing the left side... pull it as hard as you can with the left all the way up to the end of the follow through, but dont use the right side at all. practice swinging driver with the left arm only holding the clubhead instead of the grip, getting the loudest swish you can, accellerating all the way up to the end of the follow through. Then hit the ball that sme way with two hands, but not using the right at all (just hangs on for the ride). then try to emulate that driver swing with the 5 iron. good luck and have fun!

[shortgamewiz]

and also, just to kick the horse some more-- as some have alluded to, there's a definite distinction between length of back swing (u call it '3/4') and degree of shoulder rotation. You can have a shortish backswing but a huge turn. The turn is the more significant contributor to speed then how far back you take the club. What is causing the pain, the degree of turn or the length of your backwing? Another thing that's been alluded to is you have choices in your swing.. if you do more of an old fashoned move allowing the left heel to come way off the ground, and then allowing you to turn your hips away much more, greatly increasing the overall turn. (watch bobby jones on youtube). Then of course you need to twist them the other way going forward. you can do that on the driver, the long, medium, and jones even did it on the short irons. I think this type of swing makes more sense if you have the backswing related pain as you say as there's less torque.

[shortgamewiz]

oops.. i didn't really read all the posts. I don't agree with what one person said that power is solely caused by the differential between hip and shoulder turn and you shouldn't turn your hips (i.e. x factor). There are a lot of ways to create power and everyone needs to find a swing that works for them. that being said i must admit that i really love couples' swing and he doesn't turn his hips much going back, but I think Daly, nicklaus, snead, jones, all did a relatively big hip turns and had great swings. zuback turns his hips i think quite a bit going back, no??!?

[ninetwothree]

nine - you mean you don't (although I figured out what he was talking about, sorta)? I don't think my hip turn is an issue, it's getting my shoulders to do a full turn. Basically, my shoulder turn stops as the inside of my left shoulder hits the lefts side of my chin (if that makes sense).

try letting your shoulder work down more, rather than across and making contact with your chin. If the shoulders are going to make their most effective turn, they must turn 90* to the spine, and since the spine is flexed forward at address, the left shoulder must work down more than across.

[ninetwothree]

And that's where you'd like it to stop. But how much angle is between your hips and shoulder?

Quick! get a chiropractors number ASAP! Tension in your back? ..and on the let side? not likely. The muscles on the left side should not be in a stretched state. The RIGHT side should be. If you feel tension in your back your spine is in a compromised state and this will lead to back issues quickly. I think we all agree that there shouldnt be any compression or tension at setup. In the back swing, the hips must maintain their tilt and turn relatively level to that initial tilt to support the lumbar spine, and the shoulders will turn approx. 90* - or make a full turn - in relation to the spine. The role of the spine in the backswing is to extend, into a non-compromising and biomechanically efficient state. try this.... if you were to stand in your golf position with a mirror facing down the line behind you, and you made a full pivot turn to into the backswing. look at yourself. do you look "turned" or does it look like you have simply bent your body to the left? if your left shoulder got lower to the ground, then you probably leaned left, right? try doing some experiments with YOUR OWN body to produce the shoulder turn and pivot. just because it feels weird doesn't mean its wrong. Left shoulder down... Right shoulder UP... lean a little left. you can still get behind the ball and weight loaded right if you want to, but that's another debate.

[dkinser86]

Do you bring your protractor to the golf course?

I just use a bit of common sense about geometry. I know that right angles (90*) are formed by two perpendicular lines. When I address the ball, my shoulders for the first line. My goal on my back swing with my shoulders is to have them form another line that is perpendicular to the first.

[Walther]

Do you bring your protractor to the golf course?

I think most people realize 90 is half turn, and 45 degrees is a quarter turn.

w

[enduro]

Quick! get a chiropractors number ASAP! Tension in your back? ..and on the let side? not likely. The muscles on the left side should not be in a stretched state. The RIGHT side should be. If you feel tension in your back your spine is in a compromised state and this will lead to back issues quickly.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Watch any professional golfer and observe their shirt. Do you notice that on their left side the shirt is stretched and tight in their back swing? The muscles back there are as well.

It isn't a dangerous or damaging thing. Up your left side from the shoulder about half way down is where the most coiled part of your back swing is. Why? Because your left arm is stretched across your body. I'd maybe reexamine your swing and what you're doing.

oops.. i didn't really read all the posts. I don't agree with what one person said that power is solely caused by the differential between hip and shoulder turn and you shouldn't turn your hips (i.e. x factor). There are a lot of ways to create power and everyone needs to find a swing that works for them.

True, there are plenty of ways to create inferior power and make it work. But as Hogan alluded to in his book, the tension created between hip and shoulder turn is going to be the key to power. Some golfers may choose to use more of a hip turn but then they also turn their shoulders proportionately more. You must turn your hips some so you can get the club around and create an inside to out swing path, but that's about it.

For instance, look at Steve Stricker. He hits the hell out of it still. So does Zack Johnson.

I think most people realize 90 is half turn, and 45 degrees is a quarter turn.

This guy is pretty clueless about things, obviously. Apparently descriptions that have been used since the 1950's are apparently obscure to this guy. When you mention 90 and 45 everyone knows what you're talking about. I'm not sure what bizarre swing ideas that guy has but whatever.

[timastyle]

And that's where you'd like it to stop. But how much angle is between your hips and shoulder? Can you feel tension in your back?

I can definately feel tension in my back, but I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by angle between my hips and shoulder. Can you explain that a little bit?

Long ball hitters have higher clubhead speeds, so all their clubs go further (stating the obvious there I guess). Full shoulder turn going back is definitely key. I noticed at some point that if I turn my head away I can get a much bigger turn, but I think you're onto that one already. Are you turning through the other way completely as well? 180 isn't really that bad for a 5.. I suspect you're delofting on the shorter irons with your swing and or setup (is ball back with shaft leaning forward at impact?) so in effect turning a pitching wedge into an 8 or 9 iron and that effect decreases as you get to the longer irons, accounting for the discrepancy. How far do you drive? I guess if you really want to go crazy you could get your swing speed measured-- clubhead speed, angles etc. and gauge what your iron distances should be that way. Then again perhaps the issue is that you have a lot of forearm strength and your swing works well and is optimized when youre chopping down, but not as effective sweeping through. If thats the case, then maybe if you think more about sweeping around your body on the longer clubs. Also, maybe think about this.. where does the swing end? I know it sounds crazy but I used to think that the swing ended somewhere after I hit the ball and then the follow through was kind of an after thought, but then at some point I realized that the swing actually ends at the end of the "follow through" and that I should try to accellerate all the way up to that point, even if the club is wrapped around my neck facing the other way (or whereever it ends up). And here's another swing thought that might help .. try only useing the left side... pull it as hard as you can with the left all the way up to the end of the follow through, but dont use the right side at all. practice swinging driver with the left arm only holding the clubhead instead of the grip, getting the loudest swish you can, accellerating all the way up to the end of the follow through. Then hit the ball that sme way with two hands, but not using the right at all (just hangs on for the ride). then try to emulate that driver swing with the 5 iron. good luck and have fun!

I know I am delofting on my shorter irons a bit cause I'm playing the ball in the middle of my stance and play the butt of the club to the inside of my left thigh (I'm a righty). As far as my driver, I generally hit the ball around 270-280. I have hit it further before and definately not as far, but I'd say that's a good average.

[enduro]

I can definately feel tension in my back, but I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by angle between my hips and shoulder. Can you explain that a little bit?

I'd suggest Ben Hogan's book.

But what it means is how much turn and thus torque there is between the hips and shoulders. The popular view is to turn your hips 45* and your shoulders 90*, creating 45* of angle. The more angle you can create (without hurting yourself) the more general power your shot will have. This torquing creates tension that can be felt on your left back-side and creates a tremendous amount of power.

[timastyle]

i have read the book and have incorporated most of his method. i think i need to videotape myself and post it here.