Hackers & the advancement in golf equimpment

[juanrjackson]

I'm an avg golfer that normally shoots between 88-95 & to be honest I sometimes have a bad round & shoot 100+. I play a lot as a walk on with people I don't know. To be honest, I usually play within a few shots or beat them. I usually avg playing 3-4 times a month & practice a few times a month when I can. I think most people that play golf don't have time for a lot of practice & just want to get out & enjoy themselves...so if the advancement in equipment( higher MOI on drivers & irons, plus hybrids) helps the avg golfer to have a more enjoyable experience...then they are good for golf!

The avg poster here has a handicap of <10 which a lot better than most. The avg golfer can not break 100. I know you guys dislike playing with hackers...but the avg golfer is a hacker. What % people have less than a 10 handicap...probably less than 5%.....because most hackers don't have a legit handicap. I don't...I just use oobgolf site. But equipment companies & golf courses need hackers....without hackers most golf companies would go out of business & the companies that stayed in business would have to drastically increase prices. Same with golf courses....most would go out of business & the rest would have to raise green fees.

Just my opinions...but any comments?

[Gordon McTavish]

The avg golfer can not break 100. I know you guys dislike playing with hackers...but the avg golfer is a hacker.

That's just typical elitism from people who fail to remember that they once were beginners at the sport as well.

The average Golfer might be a hacker, but they might also be interested in actually advancing their game and trying to maximise their potential.

[HoosierGolfer]

Don't read too much into handicaps posted on internet websites. When hidding behind a computer screen, you can be anything you want. I can post my actual USGA HC page if you like, but most people on the internet just post what the wish their HC index was and not what it really is.
It is true, everyone was a hacker at one time or another and most golfers are at least a bogey golfer at best. I'll play golf with most anyone as long as you adhere to basic rules of golf and follow proper etiquette. Golf is recreation and is suppose to be fun. Just play and have fun and don't worry so much about what you score. Like anything else we do, it takes time and you will get better if you put the time and effort into it.
If you play bogey golf the rest of your life, you will beat most of the people you play with day in and day out.

[wmiller]

Who there! :)

Not taking the OP personal, but I play with 'hackers' every Sunday (today included), as I almost always get a tee time as a single. And for the most part, I have a good time every Sunday playing with people I don't know. I play with seniors, duffers, people just starting (literally) and wannabes. Of them all the wannabes are the worst, from a fun standpoint. Especially if the talk a better game than they bring to the course. Oh well, I just ignore them and try to have a good day! :D

To me, it doesn't matter how good you (or I) are, it's that we get out there and have a good time. Oftentimes I don't even keep score except in my head (e.g. +3, +4, etc.). Nor do I care. I don't bet as I think that's stupid, seeing as it's me against the course and not another person. I guarantee you, I'm not the least bit interested in keeping your score, but if you tell me you're playing well, I will congratulate you. To me is just a Sunday morning at the local muni. Having a good time is the purpose of my playing. Not showing off, or telling people how to play, or complaining about the pace of play, etc..

Come on down, I'll play with ya!

[juanrjackson]

Without hackers (bogey or worse golfers) would a majority of golf courses and companies go out of business?

[iacas]

I know you guys dislike playing with hackers...but the avg golfer is a hacker.

I don't get that sense at all. The guy I played most with last year may not have broken 90 the entire time I played with him. He's good company.

What % people have less than a 10 handicap...probably less than 5%.....because most hackers don't have a legit handicap.

Well

of those with handicaps it's actually 25% or so. But who knows what percentage of people you'd call "golfers" (i.e. for me it's not someone who plays twice a year)?

[MSDOGS1976]

I'm retired and we have roughly 12-15 golfers show up everyday to play. Handicaps range from 2 to 25. We have team matches and I have played with everyone in the group at some time or another. Enjoy playing with them all. I will admit, I do seem to play better when paired with the better one's. I guess it makes me try harder but I enjoy playing with the higher handicaps just as much. There is one guy who is 80 years old(looks 70) who I have played with. Still has a pretty swing and had to be a 5 handicap or so in his younger days. Struggles today due to age but he still enjoys it and I love his old golf stories.

[juanrjackson]

Well

I was considering anyone that steps on a golf course to play a round...a golfer

[Fourputt]

The way I see it, to be a golfer you have to have some concept of what the game is about. The person who maybe plays 9 holes once or twice a year because he thinks it's a lark to hit the links with a couple of sixpacks isn't a golfer. A golfer has at least some intent to understand and play the game... it isn't just an excuse to party outdoors.

The OP is golfer because he takes the time to think about such things. I have no issue with game improvement equipment as long as it is kept under reasonable control. Golf should still be a hard game to play well. There should be a reward for those who work hard to improve. A player shouldn't just be able to walk into Golfsmith and buy a good game. He should be able to buy gear that is right for his swing and level of play, but there should still be a need for an expenditure of effort to get the most out of that equipment.

Like Erik said, 25.1% of players who carry a handicap under the USGA system are a 10 or better. But other somewhat questionable stats say that only half of all players who take up the game ever break 100. I don't know where that stat comes from because if those players aren't returning cards for posting, where do the numbers come from? I've played with good players, many times with course and teaching professionals, and I've played with the worst sort of hacker who I wouldn't even call a golfer at the point in time when I played with him. I'd say that I more often play with better players, that is, those who shoot near bogey golf or better. So my experience is that quite a bit more than half of the people I've played with break 100, and do so regularly. But I don't make the claim that they are an average sample of all golfers.

I enjoy playing with golfers. People who play the game for enjoyment... for fun, I also enjoy playing with golfers who play the game more seriously. I don't always enjoy playing with golfers who take themselves too seriously. If all you ever do is go around the course with a thundercloud over your head, then why are you there in the first place? Learn to enjoy the day for its own sake, and if the golf is good, then so much the better.

[Big_M]

When hidding behind a computer screen, you can be anything you want.

1st statement... very true, I'm sure there are a few people on here stretching the truth, just look at the long drive threads.

2nd statement... see below, I don't necessarily think so.

Without hackers (bogey or worse golfers) would a majority of golf courses and companies go out of business?

interesting question... see my discussuin below of "hackers" and what % of golfers they are and what % of golf they play...

Well

That's the thing... it's really hard to tell what % of golfers have X handicap, and make assumptions about what they bring to the business...

1) many high handicaps don't have handicaps 2) as a general rule high handicaps probably play less than low handicaps 3) we don't know the % for #2, but this is huge - some courses might do fine with no 20 cappers playing (just making an assumption) 4) low cappers probably spend more per year on golf equipment (not sure though) It's really hard to draw any generalizations... I do know that I like playing with anyone who can keep pace and is good company (e.g. not a jerk or has bad ettiquette). I run into a fair share of mid-low cappers on the course, probably because they play more rounds than most 20 cappers... so playing bogey golf probably doesn't make you better than most people you will play with (in my experience... a previous poster mentioned something along these lines). Personally I don't really care who accounts for what... I'm just saying it is a difficult thing to measure. The only people I don't want to see on the course are the ones that make me wish I could always play on weekdays (slow people). P.S. Erik, it's about time you took Sid the Kid off your Avatar... it was painful seeing him after what happened to the Wings in the finals, thank you.

[GaijinGolfer]

True, most golfers are hackers and its true that there are a small percentage of golf snobs who think that its beneath them to play without some who isnt as good at golf as they are.
So what? Its really simple to deal with people like that: simply dont play with them. Just because the starter groups you with them, that doesnt mean that you have to play the entire round with them (you could always play with them for a couple holes and then seperate).

[Fourputt]

True, most golfers are hackers and its true that there are a small percentage of golf snobs who think that its beneath them to play without some who isnt as good at golf as they are.

Not on any course I play you can't, and certainly not when I'm working as the starter. The ranger will regroup you if you try it. If I pair up 2 twosomes to make a full foursome, they had better still be a foursome at the turn, or they will be grouped together again before they tee off on 10. And the ranger will be watching them the rest of the back 9. If you don't want to play with someone, tell the starter. He'll be happy to let you wait until there is another opening... maybe another couple of hours. When the course is busy all you do is back it up worse by splitting and creating 2 groups where there should be only one. If the people you are playing with are slow, then educate them. If they don't take the hint then call the shop and have the ranger sent over. You don't have the right to do your own pairing, that's what starter has a tee sheet for.

[GaijinGolfer]

P.S. Erik, it's about time you took Sid the Kid off your Avatar... it was painful seeing him after what happened to the Wings in the finals, thank you.

Amen to that!!!

[GaijinGolfer]

Not on any course I play you can't, and certainly not when I'm working as the starter. The ranger will regroup you if you try it. If I pair up 2 twosomes to make a full foursome, they had better still be a foursome at the turn, or they will be grouped together again before they tee off on 10. And the ranger will be watching them the rest of the back 9. If you don't want to play with someone, tell the starter. He'll be happy to let you wait until there is another opening... maybe another couple of hours. When the course is busy all you do is back it up worse by splitting and creating 2 groups where there should be only one. If the people you are playing with are slow, then educate them. If they don't take the hint then call the shop and have the ranger sent over. You don't have the right to do your own pairing, that's what starter has a tee sheet for.

It happens all the time around here and if any ranger tried that BS on me, you can bet that would be a course I wouldnt play at again. Theres plenty of golf courses in this world who would be more than happy to get my business.

[Fourputt]

It happens all the time around here and if any ranger tried that BS on me, you can bet that would be a course I wouldnt play at again. Theres plenty of golf courses in this world who would be more than happy to get my business.

They must not be as busy then. I ain't gonna happen when I'm in the starter booth. If there's no room then there's no room...

[juanrjackson]

It happens all the time around here and if any ranger tried that BS on me, you can bet that would be a course I wouldnt play at again. Theres plenty of golf courses in this world who would be more than happy to get my business.

I guess all courses are different. I volunteered as a starter at a local course here & if the coursewas busy (which was normal) we would not allow people to automaticly separte themselves. That seems rude because you will just backup the people behind you. Most course I play will not allow that either unless you are playing on a day when no one is around. Is the course you play not busy?

[juanrjackson]

Like Erik said, 25.1% of players who carry a handicap under the USGA system are a 10 or better. But other somewhat questionable stats say that only half of all players who take up the game ever break 100. I don't know where that stat comes from because if those players aren't returning cards for posting, where do the numbers come from?

Both #s are questionable.....but I would believe the "half players can't break 100" is more reliable. Why? What % of golfers (who even play once a month) have a USGA handicap? Hard to tell..but I would guess low. As for the avg golfer not breaking 100. I can vouch for that. Just from playing people & because I volunteered as a starter at a local muni (9 hole course) so I used to watch a lot of people playing golf & if they were keeping an honest score I'd say less than 20% were breaking 50. Now I realize the avg golfer at a 9-hole muni might not be as good......but even when I have been paired with people at courses that cost $100 only about half played better than me.

These are just my experiences...others could be different.

[Clambake]

Both #s are questionable.....but I would believe the "half players can't break 100" is more reliable. Why? What % of golfers (who even play once a month) have a USGA handicap

According to the USGA, there are 26.2 million golfers in the US, and in an Golf Digest interview with David Fay, head of USGA, he indicated that about 5 million people have an established handicap. So less than 1/5 of golfers bother to establish a handicap. It is probably safe to assume that there is a tendancy for better players to establish a handicap, while those who are "hackers" are less likely to care. So it seems the numbers sort of jibe. One thing I just don't get, however, are the attitudes or belief that good players don't want to play with "hackers" or players with high handicaps. I do a lot of playing as a single, and when I used to suck at scoring I would still get a lot of invites from really good players to play again with them - i just tried to make sure I was fast, respectful of the game, and good company. And now that i've managed to get into single digits and play fairly consistently well, I have a lot of fun playing with people of all different abilities. It all comes down to personality, not score. If the definition of a hacker is someone who doesn't respect the game, is slow to play with, whines and grumbles constantly, and also shoots well over a 100 while acting like an ass, then yes - I don't like to play with hackers. But fortunately, my experience is that those people are in the minority, and instead I'm frequently treated to a delightful day of golf with a person who is interesting and good company, and perhaps they just happen to have to hit the ball a few times more than I do.