Arms at impact

[Shanks A Million]

I notice that some people's arms are in line with the club shaft at impact, and others are more where they were at address.

As an example:

People who's arms are not inline with the shaft at impact:





And some are:




So, what's the story? I'm more like the latter two, Norman and Nicklaus. Is one "better" than the other? I've always been concerned that my club at address and impact are different, due to club fitting. I ground the club flat at adress, and it comes down steeper, but so does Nicklaus... What's the story?

[Fatphil]

yeh good question...leading edge position at address vs impact. I notice avg golfers address the ball with the toe in the air. If they hit over the top or lose their lag they then come back with the leading edge more or less square. Wish I could help ya bro but this one has confused me for years.

[Scott_K]

My arms are not inline with my shaft. I feel like I'm able to get more consistant contact and power when it's not inline. I go by the basic "get into my stance and let my arms hang" method. In doing this, the grip tends to fall naturally (maybe 6-8" from my body?). The torque generated from my body is most efficient this way.

When I put the shaft inline, I have trouble finding a comfortable distance between the grip and my body which leads to inconsistent contact. I also feel like my arms have to work too much to generate power instead of using my hips, body, shoulders, etc.

I don't know which is better or if there is a "better" one.

[Fatphil]

I think this is a more complex question than u think. The shaft angle at address vs the shaft angle at impact is critical. That also translates to the leading edge (toe up or down vs heel up or down) at address vs the leading edge at impact.

Is a variation OK,,or is there a fudge factor...may 2 or 3 degrees high or low. Don't know...Interesting question.

[MiniMoe]

The pictures you posted don't tell the whole story. The first two are shots well after impact, and the latter two look like they are at address. In reality, all the great players of the game, (all good players too) have the same impact position. Looking at the players face on, the left arm and club form a straight line from the shoulder to the ball at impact. On the down the line view, that left arm and club also form a straight line at impact (there is no bend in the elbow or wrist. It really does not matter how they start, but at impact they are all the same.

Now, the difference in set up varies from player to player. Moe Norman was different because he set up to the ball in the "impact" position. It made more sense to him to start in the same place he was going to finish.

If you set up in the standard position, something has to move to allow your arm and the club to form a straight line at impact. Moe started at the impact position, so he had the least moving parts in his golf swing. His was the most efficient at delivering the club square to the ball at impact. All other swing have adjustments to deliver the club square and "on plane" at impact.

[Shanks A Million]

The pictures you posted don't tell the whole story. The first two are shots well after impact, and the latter two look like they are at address. In reality, all the great players of the game, (all good players too) have the same impact position. Looking at the players face on, the left arm and club form a straight line from the shoulder to the ball at impact. On the down the line view, that left arm and club also form a straight line at impact (there is no bend in the elbow or wrist. It really does not matter how they start, but at impact they are all the same.

OK, all of that I understand. Norman was a single plane swing, most are not. But, how does this affect fitting? Should I ground my clubs so the toe is pointed up after I'm fitted? It seems like this would be the only way.

[MiniMoe]

when you get fitted, you hit balls off a lie board. The fitter will know if the clubs need to be bent or not depending on how the club strikes the ground. Set up position does not really tell you much.

[Shanks A Million]

when you get fitted, you hit balls off a lie board. The fitter will know if the clubs need to be bent or not depending on how the club strikes the ground. Set up position does not really tell you much.

Yes, yes, I understand all that. My problem is that I always ground the club at setup so it's flat. This has always been the basis of my swing, the exact lie angle of the club dictates how I set up. I'm 3° upright, but even when the fitter handed me a 3° upright club, I hit it exactly 3° too upright. No matter what lie he handed me, I hit it 3° upright, every time. My question is, then, is with a two plane swing, is it proper to setup with the toe off the ground?

[Fatphil]

Face on at impact the shaft is slightly behind the arm for a good player,,,straight for an avg player and for a higher hdcpr...ugly. The down the line question to me is fuzzy. If the shaft at address is at 45 deg and coming into the ball the shaft is in line with the left arm to me that indicates a negative lag. hmmm. I honestly don't know the answer. We know that the "P" line has a range that it needs to fit into but how that relates to club fitting is still puzzling to me.

Logically as minimoe says if the shaft and the left arm from down the line are straight and u have a 45 deg angle at setup it would seem that you should get fitted with an upright lie to compensate. But if u always hit the ground upright no matter what lie of the irons (ie a toe first divot) then I would look at other issues.

Anyway we have 1 vote for straight line btw arm & shaft....0 for some kind of angle....

[MiniMoe]

If I'm understanding you correctly, if a club fitter handed you a club that is bent 4 degrees flat (off of standard), and you hit it on a lie board, the results would show that the club is still too upright?

[Scott_K]

I think I understood the initial post wrong. I was looking at distance of the hands to the body and thinking if there was one which is better. When they're too far away, the it looks like the golfer has to reach for the ball. Two extremes that come to mind are comparing someone like Furyk and Creamer. Furyk's hands are like hairs away from his body while Creamer looks like she's reaching for the ball.

So this is how I'm interpretting this now. Looking down the line, my setup has an angle between the arms and shaft. However at impact, the left arm straightens out. I gather it straightens out because at impact, the body is starting to turn towards the target with the hands lagging behind in order to supinate the left wrist. At impact, the arms and shaft are now in a straight line (or close to straight). Does the left shoulder turning help get the arms and shaft to straighten out then ?

[MiniMoe]

the left shoulder turns but also has to come up to allow room for the left are to straighten.. in the traditional swing. Moe set up in the impact position. He looked very far from the ball, but it allowed him room to start where he finished... and he was very balanced because his stance was wider than normal. He started with a good shoulder tilt as well. It started and ended in almost the same positions.

[Shanks A Million]

If I'm understanding you correctly, if a club fitter handed you a club that is bent 4 degrees flat (off of standard), and you hit it on a lie board, the results would show that the club is still too upright?

Every club the fitter handed me was

exactly 3° too flat. I hit my own irons, 3° too flat. I hit a 3° upright iron, and yet it was still 3° too flat. I think it's becase I set up to the ball with the club flat on the ground, and my swing plane (second plane) is exactly 3° steeper. So, logically then, I should setup with the toe pointing 3° up, then I'll come through perfectly even. I think it's because, like the real Moe, I'm also mostly autistic. My senses are very acute, and I tend to compensate for every little thing. This drove the fitter up a wall! He hands me a 5° upright club, and puts the tape on it... Guess what? 3° flat!

[Fatphil]

Provided your not 6'2" or taller I see no reason to have 3 or 5 deg upright clubs.

For me a solid hit occurs when at impact my shaft angle is similar (not exact but close) to the shaft angle at address and the leading edge of the iron is flat (square) to the ground. If my shaft at impact is 6" above my address position and I catch the divot toe first...I'm either drunk (happens on the back 9 ha ha) or I've made some serious loopy loops in my backswing or released my lag.

[Shanks A Million]

Provided your not 6'2" or taller I see no reason to have 3 or 5 deg upright clubs.

Well that's totally untrue. Everyone is built differently. You wouldn't say, "unless you're 6'2" or more, I see no reason to need a size 12 shoe."

[Fatphil]

ha ha I won't go there with the shoe comment.

I can only speak for myself but I'm 5'10" and when I address the ball from DTL there's a definite angle between my shaft and my arms and the leading edge is flat on the ground with a 0 deg lie. When I make a good swing my divot is square thus indicating that same angle was more or less replicated at impact. For me to go 5 deg upright I would address the ball either with the toe WAY up in the air or I would have to arch my wrists to make the shaft in line with my left arm.....which for me would be very uncomfortable.

[Shanks A Million]

ha ha I won't go there with the shoe comment.

Have you hit from a lie board and been properly fitted?

[Fatphil]

Have you hit from a lie board and been properly fitted?

nope..can't say as I have. I tend to look at my divot and work backwards from there. Maybe I'm stubborn but I feel a lie board is a crutch that hides a poor golf swing. Or maybe I'm just cheap!!