S&T Downswing

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Something that I have really been struggling with using the S&T; swing is the downswing. For the most part, my backswing is picture perfect, but it's the downswing where things fall apart.

I was having pretty good results starting my downswing with my arms. I would use a hard tug with my left arm towards the target. However, after reading more about the S&T;, Plummer and Bennett say to initiate the downswing with the hips. If I initiate the downswing with my hips I tend to have my spine start leaning away from the target.

So, what I am asking is how do I turn my hips and get the weight onto my left side without leaning back? Any good drills or tips?

[iacas]

So, what I am asking is how do I turn my hips and get the weight onto my left side without leaning back? Any good drills or tips?

Your spine does lean away at impact. If your spine is vertical at the top of your backswing and your hips go forward while the head stays still, of course it'll lean back.

I must ask this though: you realize the first move down isn't to turn the hips but to push them, linearly, forward just about as much as possible, right? The "turning" happens fairly naturally.

[david_wedzik]

So, what I am asking is how do I turn my hips and get the weight onto my left side without leaning back? Any good drills or tips?

I think what you are describing is that you don't want your upper axis to tilt (or shift) to the right as the hips move forward. If this happens the head would move backwards and the right shoulder would drop down...and this would be disruptive. Just move the lower center forward with your head in place. As long as the hips move forward with the head and upper axis stable the tilt that is put in on the right side is correct (this is the secondary axis tilt).

If you are doing this and still concerned you can push the lower center forward and keep your left shoulder feeling like it stays "down" at the same time. This keeps the shoulders in their pitch as you start forward and keeps the upper axis stable. Dave

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

I think what you are describing is that you don't want your upper axis to tilt (or shift) to the right as the hips move forward. If this happens the head would move backwards and the right shoulder would drop down...and this would be disruptive. Just move the lower center forward with your head in place. As long as the hips move forward with the head and upper axis stable the tilt that is put in on the right side is correct (this is the secondary axis tilt).

Yes, that what I was trying to say and that's exactly what happens and the result is a hook or a thin/tops shot. I will try your suggestion this week and see if it helps. I think that I may have been turning my hips as well as iacas indicated. Thanks for your suggestions.

[david_wedzik]

Yes, that what I was trying to say and that's exactly what happens and the result is a hook or a thin/tops shot. I will try your suggestion this week and see if it helps. I think that I may have been turning my hips as well as iacas indicated. Thanks for your suggestions.

Yes...overdraws/hooks and thins would be common results of this procedure for sure!

Dave

[Addicted2Golf]

You've had 2 experts weigh in on your question already, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents because I've struggled with this concept. I had a hard time "pushing" my hips through without it being awkward and throwing off other areas of my swing. What I found helped me is focusing on making the push with the instep of my right foot. Pushing off of the instep of my right foot got my hips going in the right direction without consciously focusing on my hips. I hope I'm not way off base on this one, and if I am I'd like to know so I can fix my own flaws, but this did help me start my downswing with my lower body and clear my hips properly.

[wannabe]

The way it's been suggested to me is to think about driving your back knee toward your front knee. Hips will do the right thing.

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Thanks for the help. It appears that the lateral shift towards the target on my downswing was moving more quickly than my club. I was able to get away with it when I was using my arms in conjunction with the hips, but when I made my arms more passive, the arms fell behind and came too far from the inside, thus hitting a hook.

However, I have better consistency is better when using my arms and my hips together, instead of just relying on my hips. So, it that just a band-aid fix and something I should stop using? Focusing on just keeping the arms passive and just along for the ride or is it okay to use both the tug of my left arm and hip shift together?

[keb]

I also find that the he downswing is harder to understand conceptually. What I found yesterday hitting on the range was that keeping the head in play seemed to make other components fall into place. Does this make sense?

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

The March issue of Golf Magazine features Zach Johnson and his swing with comments from Mike Bender. In the section " Coaches Corner: A Synched-Up Downswing ", I think Bender answers my question as to whether a small tug with my left hand to start my swing downswing that I was using is a quick fix that would lead to inconsistency long term or a permanent swing fix that I could always use.

Bender says, " Zach's downswing sequence is perfect. His hips don't get into the act until he drops the club down to waist height. This allows him to move his arms and his hips in sync through impact. With this kind of swing you need less hand action, which leads to greater consistency." The second photo in the sequence says, "More arms, less hips"

That being said, is Johnson is using a true S&T; swing or a modified version.

[uttexas]

Z Johnson's swing has many elements consistent with S&T---he; stays centered, keeps a lot of weight forward, straightens rear leg/flexes front leg on the way back, keeps right arm on torso, swings through the ball maintaining his wrist cock (flying wedge). His followthrough is more reverse C than what S&T; prescribes

[iacas]

That being said, is Johnson is using a true S&T; swing or a modified version.

No. He's close, but so is every nearly PGA Tour pro. Mike Bender doesn't teach S&T; and still prefers a weight shift back to the right (though if you watch Zach's swing in the past three or four years, it's getting smaller every year).

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Am I missing it? In the second video uttexas posted (with the iron) where is Zach's flying wedge?

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

I think what you are describing is that you don't want your upper axis to tilt (or shift) to the right as the hips move forward. If this happens the head would move backwards and the right shoulder would drop down...and this would be disruptive. Just move the lower center forward with your head in place. As long as the hips move forward with the head and upper axis stable the tilt that is put in on the right side is correct (this is the secondary axis tilt).

Dave, this is occuring again resulting in tops that I can't shake. While your explanation seems simple enough, I just can't seem to do it. Can you recommend an drills that will help break the habit of my upper axis shifting right?

[iacas]

Dave, this is occuring again resulting in tops that I can't shake. While your explanation seems simple enough, I just can't seem to do it. Can you recommend an drills that will help break the habit of my upper axis shifting right?

The drill isn't 100% built for this, but you can still do it and keep your head ON the wall without it falling off:

Of course, if that's not why you're topping the ball, it can't hurt, but it may not help.

[david_wedzik]

Dave, this is occuring again resulting in tops that I can't shake. While your explanation seems simple enough, I just can't seem to do it. Can you recommend an drills that will help break the habit of my upper axis shifting right?

I don't remember the original quote by you on this point but your (and most) tops are caused when the club head is already moving UP when it contacts the ball. The original comments I made were to stop this and move the low point more forward. Mark a line on the ground with paint or put two sticks/clubs on the ground to create a line (with a gap in b/w the two sticks/clubs for a spot to swing your club through)...then make practice swings (no ball) hitting the ground in FRONT of the line. NOT on the line...in front of the line. When you can do this A LOT of times in a row put a ball there. Then swing with the objective of hitting in front of the line only (don't try to hit the ball...just hit in front of the line). Do this and stick with it and the "tops" will disappear.

Dave

[damnitdave]

your going to need to release the #4 and #1 if the left arms stays on the chest to long it will create to much tilt to the right...... also i was told to prevent the hips opening up to soon try to keep the trailing leg straight a little longer while pushing the hips forward.... this also will give room for #4 to come down

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Damn it thanks. Will try this out tomorrow on the range.