Where did Aaron Baddeley go?

[egehoski]

Aaron may very well get better, but he got so far with S&T; but didn't commit fully to learning the "whys" per se, but at least expanded his knowledge somewhat and, if he's smart, will apply that knowledge to whatever swing he's doing now. Thus far he doesn't seem to be.

I don't really get your huge fascination with Stack and Tilt? I know that you're a big fan of it, from what I've seen on this forum. But then, why are most of the players who used it....moving away from it? I'm not saying that it's not a good method. I've never messed with it, myself. I've never found a reason to change. My ball striking is pretty good. My areas for improving are around, and on the green. I just don't understand why, if it's such a great method...players are moving away from it? I'm beginning to wonder if maybe you're getting a cut of the royalties from the Stack and Tilt book, and DVD series? Weir and Baddeley both switched. Who's left, Dean Wilson?

[iacas]

I don't really get your huge fascination with Stack and Tilt?

It's not a fascination. It's the simplest, best method I've found for hitting a golf ball. I'd arrived at it independently through my own study of the golf swing and didn't know the terms - but calling it a "fascination" is too much.

I'll move off of it as soon as someone can disprove something in the geometry. Until then, I think it's the best pattern out there, and individual parts of it can be used to repair or fix or improve just about every golf swing.

But then, why are most of the players who used it....moving away from it?

There are two, and both have dropped in the rankings since leaving the fold. Additionally, neither will likely forget the pieces and things they've learned (including the ball flight laws - which still 40%+ of PGA Tour pros have wrong).

Did you know that Tim Herron talked to Mike and Andy when he won a few years ago? How about Dustin Johnson, who worked with Mike and Andy for a month, won, and then stiffed them? There are a lot of other pros out there who have worked with Mike and Andy on one little thing and taken that and applied it to their swing. After all, it's rare for a pro to make a wholesale change to their swing... (that said, most pros are 70% or more of the way to S&T; to begin with).

players are moving away from it?

Again, two. Tiger "moved away" from Butch Harmon. And before that, he "moved away" from the swing he used to win six straight USGA titles and the Masters. Players strive to get better. History is littered with those who tried to get better and screwed up, and then there are people like Tiger who get better. Though not to the same level, Mike and Aaron both improved their world ranking and most of their full-swing related stats when they switched to S&T.;

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe you're getting a cut of the royalties from the Stack and Tilt book, and DVD series?

Nope. Not a dime. Paid my way to the class last Thursday, too.

Weir and Baddeley both switched. Who's left, Dean Wilson?

Silly boy.

There are 15 people "in the fold" and another bunch who've talked to Mike and Andy who are employing one or two pieces while officially staying with their current coaches. Sean Foley and even Mike Bender employ very S&T; style moves (Bender still believes in the translation of the upper axis, but his students do it less and less), and Sean O'Hair's swing is one of the best out there and he's very much S&T; - Sean Foley's taught himself S&T; from the DVDs and the book, asks Mike and Andy questions all the time, and O'Hair is widely reputed as having one of the best swings on the PGA Tour - in part because announcers like Nick Faldo and Brandel Chamblee don't know he's basically got an S&T; swing and, thus, aren't predisposed to be biased against it. If you want to really get into it, by all means do so. Maybe this is the ideal thread, maybe it's not. Aaron's no longer in the fold, but he's not going to forget the things he's learned, and yet it's somewhat telling that he's fallen since leaving. Mike and Andy are happy to work with the remaining 20 guys they have, and to continue to answer Sean Foley's questions, and to continue to help others who ask them a question or two.

[Cleveland Gunmetal]

S&T; does seem to have an immediate impact on some players who then have difficulty maintaining the same success. Tim Herron, Baddeley, and I believe Dean Wilson all won right away after switching (or talking to Andy and Mike). Troy Matteson too, I think. But none of those guys seem to be doing a whole lot right now. I do wonder about the long term success of the S&T.; I do agree that players probably take a part or two of S&T; and employ it to their current swing and Andy and Mike don't get the credit for that. And this is the PGA Tour; why do players switch swing coaches, putters, drivers, club manufacturers, caddies, etc etc, just the nature of it I guess.

[iacas]

Tim Herron, Baddeley, and I believe Dean Wilson all won right away after switching (or talking to Andy and Mike). Troy Matteson too, I think. But none of those guys seem to be doing a whole lot right now.

You do realize that Troy's win - and record-setting back-to-back rounds of 61-61 - was only a few months ago, right? He's won more recently on the PGA Tour than Phil Mickelson. And Tiger Woods.

And the point remains that Mike and Andy tend not to coach the guys who are winning regularly. They're taking guys who might be making a moderate living but never threatening to move up from the Nationwide Tour and turning them into guys that keep their cards and occasionally win on the PGA Tour. Additionally, Stack and Tilt is a full swing thing - these guys still have to have a good short game and putt well. Where's Troy in the putting stats this year? He's 174th in PPR and 173rd in PPGIR. There's more to golf - especially on the PGA Tour - than what full swing method you use.

[kfowler]

I'll say this, it most take a huge leap of faith to make major changes to your swing as a pro. Especially when poor results could cost you your livelihood. I can see why players only take bits and pieces of S&T.;

[Cleveland Gunmetal]

You do realize that Troy's win - and record-setting back-to-back rounds of 61-61 - was only a few months ago, right? .

Yeah, I wasn't sure on the time table of Matteson since I tend to shut down my golf viewing after the now FedEx cup. And when I wrote that I was for some reason thinking of his 2006 win of the very same golf tournament you reference. 4 shots better in 2006 so I guess he's regressed...

We'll see where he is with the S&T; a year from now.

And Tiger Woods..

LOL. Excellent point.

And the point remains that Mike and Andy tend not to coach the guys who are winning regularly. They're taking guys who might be making a moderate living but never threatening to move up from the Nationwide Tour and turning them into guys that keep their cards and occasionally win on the PGA Tour.

Agreed. Good point (no sarcasm). And for the record I am a supporter, or at the very least, a non hater of the S&T.;

[Leftygolfer]

The funny thing is all the pros featured in the book had success instantly. They all saw positive results very quickly as do most average folk like us.

[iacas]

The funny thing is all the pros featured in the book had success instantly. They all saw positive results very quickly as do most average folk like us.

I think that's a big part of it. S&T; isn't something you need to adopt wholeheartedly. You can take one piece - any piece - and put it into your game and see results immediately. Again, very few of the pros Mike and Andy work with employ ALL of the S&T; pattern.

Also, part of the problem (or one thing that makes it easy to bash) is that S&T; has a name. How many students does Butch Harmon have on the PGA Tour? Hank Haney? David Leadbetter? Sean Foley? Mike Bender? They're all well renowned instructors, yet they all fall (right or wrong) into the "other" category, despite the fact that they teach different things. Mike and Andy teach more players than anyone else out there, but far less than "everyone else combined." If David Leadbetter gave his swing a name, it'd be easy to say "how are the 'Heavy as Lead' players doing?" So, hey, whatever. In some ways I'm preaching to the choir and in other ways maybe some of you don't care or I won't convince. So... ok. P.S. Be wary of the thinking of "how well a player plays determines the greatness of the coach." Tiger could name me his coach tomorrow and many people would instantly assume I'm the greatest instructor in the world... and all I'd tell Tiger is "keep doing what you're doing." Quality of player != quality of instructor. Improvement is a better determinant of that.

[i-Guy]

iacas ...great responses to all comments about the S&T; and the pros who have used it...I don't care what anyone else thinks:

S&T; RULES

I would rather everyone stay with their traditional method as it will give me a distinct advantage in tournaments (half kidding) and as you mentioned..there is a lot more to great golf then just a swing method...you have to think and have a great short game!!!