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Posted

I have been reading the book Swing Like a Pro , which is supposed to show the idealized swing based on computer modeling of dozens of tour professionals, including a lot of big names (Nicklaus, Palmer).  The author discusses in detail where each part of your body should be placed for the "perfect" swing.  For the setup, he states that the knee of the back leg should be flexed inwards and the front leg relatively straight.  This, along with the lowered back shoulder, results in a body position resembling a "Reverse K".  This is all very well known to most accomplished golfers.  However, I have always used almost an equal amount of flex in both knees during setup and as I watch most pros, it appears to me that they are doing the same.  When I provide very little flex in my front leg and quite a bit more in my back leg during setup, this seems to force my back hip forward, thus opening my hips to the target line.

Did I miss something here, or is the author overemphasizing this stance?

Driver: Burner 10.5 deg
5W: R7 18 deg
3H: Idea Tech
4-PW: MP-57
GW: Vokey 52 degSW: 56 degLW: 60 degPutter: Black Series 1 34"Ball: Pro V1


Posted

Anyone?  (*crickets chirping)

Driver: Burner 10.5 deg
5W: R7 18 deg
3H: Idea Tech
4-PW: MP-57
GW: Vokey 52 degSW: 56 degLW: 60 degPutter: Black Series 1 34"Ball: Pro V1


Posted



Quote:

Did I miss something here, or is the author overemphasizing this stance?

Probably you've missed something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plugged View Post

Anyone?  (*crickets chirping)


The stance you're describing sounds more like an impact positon. I'm not a pro, but for most of my swings, if I wasn't holding a club in my setup you probably couldn't tell if I was setting up to hit right handed or left handed.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.


Posted

Quote:
The stance you're describing sounds more like an impact positon.

Not impact position; it's a setup position.

Refering to the figure below, note the exaggerated back leg flex causing the knee to turn in slightly, which in turn causes the hips to turn towards the target.  This seems contradictory to standard advice that the feet, hips and shoulders should all remain parallel to the target line.  BTW, the text in this book specifically says to do this, so it's not just an error in the figure.

SLAP-invertedK.jpg

Driver: Burner 10.5 deg
5W: R7 18 deg
3H: Idea Tech
4-PW: MP-57
GW: Vokey 52 degSW: 56 degLW: 60 degPutter: Black Series 1 34"Ball: Pro V1


Posted


Originally Posted by plugged

Not impact position; it's a setup position.

Refering to the figure below, note the exaggerated back leg flex causing the knee to turn in slightly, which in turn causes the hips to turn towards the target.  This seems contradictory to standard advice that the feet, hips and shoulders should all remain parallel to the target line.  BTW, the text in this book specifically says to do this, so it's not just an error in the figure.


Okay now I see what you mean.  It's not too far off an impact position. Both could be seen as a reverse K. I'd probably try to have less weight forward at address, but I could be wrong about that too.

impact02.jpg impact01.jpg

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.


Posted

OK, this has been bugging me, so I did a little graphics exercise to compare the "ideal pro" in my previous post to setup pics of several pros to see if, indeed, their level of back leg flex is the same.

The figure below shows the leg flex superimposed on a random sampling of pros.  Out of all these guys, I think only Woods (can't really tell because his trousers hang too loose near his calf) and Els come close to the "ideal pro", but even their leg flex is not as exaggerated.  The rest don't even come close.

My conclusion?  The figure of the "ideal pro" and the advice in the book are misleading.  I have no idea how they could digitally analyze so many pro swings and come to the conclusion that "most" pros emphasize a back leg flex to the degree they show.

Swing setup with markup.jpg

Driver: Burner 10.5 deg
5W: R7 18 deg
3H: Idea Tech
4-PW: MP-57
GW: Vokey 52 degSW: 56 degLW: 60 degPutter: Black Series 1 34"Ball: Pro V1


Posted

Maybe there is no perfect swing, but trying to blend good swings into one uberswing sounds like a good way for 14 handicappers to waste time during the off season. Good news - it's golf season so you don't need to worry about reverse Ks.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.


Posted

Looks like the Gary Edwin right sided golf swing.

In my mizuno.gif Neo Cart Bag or rife.gif Staff Bag on clicgear.gif 2.0 Trolley
 Driver: R11 10.5* |  3W: CB4 15* | adams.gif Hybrid: Idea Pro (20* & 23*)
bridgestone.gif Irons: J36 Cavity Back (5-PW) | vokey.gif Wedges: S.M Oil Cans: 52.08, 56.08 & 60.04
rife.gif Putter: 2-bar Hybrid Blade | bridgestone.gif Ball: B330-RX  Ball: Pro V1

 


Posted

from what ive been told, the reverse K has much more to do with the right shoulder being lower than the left at address.  this basically forces the hips forward slightly, and causes the flex in the right knee.

i know this doesnt answer your initial question, but it helped me when i finally got it.

PING  G-15 (10.5*) Miyazaki C. Kua 39   ------   PING  G-15 (18.5*) Oban Revenge 6
PING  I -15 (20*) UST Attas Hybrid 285 -----
PING  I -15 (4-PW) AeroTech SteelFiber i80
PING  Tour -S (54*,60*)  TT DG Spinner ----- PING  Scottsdale Pickemup (33")

Note: This thread is 5352 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. 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Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
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