Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
IGNORED

square to square or inside to square


Note: This thread is 6831 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted

was just curious what you guys out there thought.

for the putting stroke...do you believe the putterface should remain square throughout the stroke...or should the face swing on an arc and naturally open then come back to square...then close again.


don't want you guys to think too much about it or it'll drive you nuts...has happened to me already.

THE SET

Driver - FT-5 Tour 9.5* w/ Matrix Studio 84g X Flex
3 Wood - X-Tour 15* w/ Matrix Studio 94g X Flex
5 Wood - X 18* w/ Matrix Studio 94g X Flex(3-9) - Forged MB TT Dynamic Gold X100 D4 weighted standard length and liePW - X-Tour Vintage 50* same shaft as aboveSW - X-Tour Vintage 55*...

Posted
This is one of the biggest cans of (golf) worms you can open. People have debated this one for years.

I try to do straight back and straight through. Seems simplest for all but the very longest putts whereupon it seems harder not to emulate a short-iron swing.
A Mixed Bag

Driver 320Ti, 10.5 R, stock graphite
Ovation 3W, Aldila 65R graphite
Dunlop DDH 5W Edge CFT Hybrid 3-iron, #3 graphite CFT irons 4 - E wedge, #3 graphite Apex Edge F wedge 60 degree LW Bobby Grace M5K putter Laddie X A3

Posted
I've always worked on square to square, I've seen plenty of people putt great using both methods but square to square is just more natural (or learned so long ago that it feels natural) for me.

Posted
Square to square. Like a pendulum.

Driver: 907D2 9.5˚
3 Wood: 904F 15˚
Hybrid: 585H 19˚
Irons: 695.CB, 3-PW, S300
Wedges: 588 56˚, chrome Vokey 60˚ chromePutter: Ally


  • Administrator
Posted
I'll take Scotty Cameron's word (as well as his science), as well as a quick study of the world's best putters of all time, and put in an arcing motion - inside/square/inside.

As Scotty Cameron said, the only time you should putt square to square is croquet style, and that's illegal.

Yes, this has been debated here - at length - before. Look up my Detour putter review for more. Or just read this thread .

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
Zach Johnson putts Square to Square.
Vaughn Taylor putts Square to Square.
Phil Mickelson putts Inside to Square to Inside.
Tiger Woods putts Inside to Square to Inside.

All 4 of them are really established putters.

I putt Square to Square. I can't do the latter. Maybe it's because I'm a right hander with a left dominate eye.... maybe its because the moon is in line with the farthest star of the Milky Way. Who knows?

Try them both, and see what works best for you. Like many things in golf, there is no right or wrong. Whatever gets the ball in the hole more often!
Whats in the Bag?

Titleist 907D2 - UST ProForce V2 65S
Callaway X-Tour 15* - Fujikira Tour Platform
Titleist 755 - DG S300TM RAC TP Wedges - 52, 56, 60YES! Tracy IITitliest PRO-V1
Current Handicap - 4

  • Administrator
Posted
Zach Johnson putts Square to Square.

I'm not saying "wrong," because I don't have video at my finger tips, but based on what I've got in my memory, I'd say I disagree. The image on the front page of seemore.com would imply that the face of Zach's putter closes through impact.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
Zach Johnson's ball position does seem to be unusually far back in his stance.

For what its worth what I feel and what video of my putting show are different things. It feels to me as if I am going straight back and through. Video shows my putter moves slightly inside on the back stroke and back to square at contact.

1W Cleveland LauncherComp 10.5, 3W Touredge Exotics 15 deg.,FY Wilson 19.5 degree
4 and 5H, 6I-GW Callaway Razr, SW, LW Cleveland Cg-14, Putter Taylor Made Suzuka, Ball, Srixon XV Yellow


Posted
I am an arc guy...thats how I learned. Having read all the benefits of square through...it just feels wonkily (yes...that IS a scientific term) to me. =)
Driver: 907D2 9.5*- Aldila VS Proto 65 - Stiff
4 Wood: Tour Edge Exotics 16* - Aldila VS Proto 65 - Stiff
Hybrids: CLK FLI-HI 20* and 23* - Stiff
Irons: MP-60 4 - PW - Project X Flighted 6.0
Wedges: 56* and 60* Spin Milled OilCan - Spinner Wedge ShaftsPutter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2.5Ball:.....

  • Administrator
Posted
I am an arc guy...thats how I learned. Having read all the benefits of square through...it just feels wonkily (yes...that IS a scientific term) to me. =)

I've yet to see an advantage to the square to square (or "straight back, straight through") method. What are they supposed to be? Perhaps they're subjective, because words like "better" in "better alignment" are subjective. What's better? I'm more consistent with my alignment and the starting path of the ball when I putt in an arc.

I don't see much science behind "square to square" - but it's there on the arc method.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
I've yet to see an advantage to the square to square (or "straight back, straight through") method. What are they supposed to be? Perhaps they're subjective, because words like "better" in "better alignment" are subjective. What's better? I'm more consistent with my alignment and the starting path of the ball when I putt in an arc.

Well I am generally a fan of Pelz. I generally agree with MOST of his thoughts and teachings. Just speaking in loose terms...my intrepretations and as such subject to me not fully understanding what I read...Pelz is a Square to Square guy. In just a few brief words...according to him...Sq. to Sq. leaves less room for error. If the putter face is square all the way...you cant hit a put offline. Pelz is a scientific minded person. His thoughts I think are sound, in that if you were to talk about the 'geometry of putting' sq. to sq. makes a hell of alot of sense.

I personally see what he is saying...and if I were to build a machine to putt...it would maintain a square angle throughout the stroke. Thing is though...I am not a machine. Sq. to Sq. feels unnatural to me...and in that statement..."Feel" is the key. Putting is all about 'feel'. I have seen a few Sq. to Sq. guys...and hey...if you can putt like that...and it 'feels' right...then I am all for it. Its arguably a more sound scientific approach than I use in my arc.
Driver: 907D2 9.5*- Aldila VS Proto 65 - Stiff
4 Wood: Tour Edge Exotics 16* - Aldila VS Proto 65 - Stiff
Hybrids: CLK FLI-HI 20* and 23* - Stiff
Irons: MP-60 4 - PW - Project X Flighted 6.0
Wedges: 56* and 60* Spin Milled OilCan - Spinner Wedge ShaftsPutter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2.5Ball:.....

Posted
Like everything else with putting, if it works for you, then go with it. For me, the arc requires the same variable as does the full swing. You have to have good timing to square the clubhead back up at impact. Any variance in the stroke and it's not going to happen.

It feels to me that there are fewer moving parts in the square method. And that happens to work well for my setup and stance, which is similar to Nicklaus', although not as crouched over as Jack is. I'm a fairly good putter, and I've always used the square method. I've tried out the arc on the practice green, but never could hit a putt where I was aiming.

This is the literal meaning of the adage "different strokes for different folks".

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 6831 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Day 1: 2025.12.26 Worked on LH position on grip, trying to keep fingers closer to perpendicular to the club. Feels awkward but change is meant to.
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.