Am I ready for players's irons?

[Dewdman42]

After quite a few years with my Taylor Made RAC HT's, I'm finally ready for some new irons, mainly because I want better shafts.  Trying to decide whether I should get so called "Players's" irons or not.  I have found that when I try some of them out, they can feel great, but I'm not sure whether or not I will be killing myself on a bad day wishing I have some kind of moderate game improvement iron.  I know for sure I don't want or need extreme game improvement irons.

My hc is around 15, particularly iron play (around the green is my weakness at the moment).

I have spent the past few years heavily focused on trying to improve my swing, many lessons, many trips to the range.  And my swing has indeed improved a lot.  I'm not sure that penalizing my mis hits with harshness to my hands is going to make any difference to my improvement.  I'm already obsessed with practice and improvement.

Most of the time I am also not really trying to "shape" my shots, though occasionally I do attempt a draw or cut shot, most often not very successfully.  Is that because my RAC's just don't respond well to that? I also rarely get the ball to roll backwards on the green.  Is that where the players irons would reward me with good hits?  Are player's irons more likely to have consistent distance (assuming pure shots)?

I'm thinking of the Titleist AP1 or AP2, and also considering some kind of Mizuno or perhaps Taylor mades, but I don't like the Taylormade Burner frankenstein, too non-standard for my blood.  I want to get straight up irons with no special secret tricks....and particularly I don't want something designed to send the ball higher then normal or further than normal.  But perhaps a bit more forgiving on mishits then the full on blade.   I will be customizing the shafts in any case.

I would appreciate any feedback about player's irons versus GI irons, and perhaps some suggestions about specific models which are somewhat forgiving but still able to work the ball a bit.

[BugDude]

First, I play (and have for many years) an old set of Golden Ram Tour Grind muscle back blades.  I put that out there as a reference point for my perspective and opinion.  I also have a set of Ram FX Pro Set progressive cavity irons.

1)  Forged irons give incredible feel and feedback and feel great around the green.  There are many styles of forged irons from muscle backs, blades, progressive cavity, to pure on cavity back irons.

2)  The advantage I find with my MB blades is I can control trajectory and work the ball either direction easily.  You are correct that a set of game improvement irons are designed to be forgiving so they are harder to manipulate the ball flite.  Whether or not you are ready to work the ball (both trajectory and side to side) is a question only you can answer but trying it with forgiving clubs may be frustrating you.  I prefer to play a lower trajectory, so the switch for me was an immediate solution.

3)  Blades, muscle backs, etc. are not what I would call more consistent in distance.  The consistency ofthem is purely dependent upon your ball striking.  They command very good contact.

4)  How I got into blades was I got a great older set on Ebay for $50 (2i - pw) just to use for practice to improve ball striking.  I eventually fell in love with them and have been using them ever since.  Currently there are some great sets on ebay for $100 or so (MacGreggor VIPs, Golden Rams, Ram FX pro set, Sam Snead Blue Ridge, etc.)

5)  The progressive sets of forged irons have larger long iron heads with cavity backs that get progressively smaller (heads and cavities) as the clubs get shorter with blade or muscle backs in the short irons.  This may be a great place for you to look.  In current clubs, Nike has such a set if you want to drop the coin.  My advice is check out older sets on ebay and work with them to see if that's for you before you drop big bucks on a set.  The old Ram irons were frequency matched from factory.  They were expensive irons back in the day.  All sets were weight and balance matched and spine aligned shafts.  Great consistent feel through the set.  You don't get that today from off the shelf clubs.  The manufacturers today typically use mid grade shafts and only care about the labels all pointing the same way.

I hope this helps.

[Dewdman42]

BugDude, thanks a lot for your thoughtful response.  I think its safe to say that blades are out of the question at this stage, but I could see getting an older set of used ones for practicing at the range.  I have been thinking about that as well.  I understand the concept behind "cavity backs".  What is a muscle back?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Dewdman42

BugDude, thanks a lot for your thoughtful response.  I think its safe to say that blades are out of the question at this stage, but I could see getting an older set of used ones for practicing at the range.  I have been thinking about that as well.  I understand the concept behind "cavity backs".  What is a muscle back?

You're not ready.

[BugDude]

Cavity Backs are concave behind the hitting area.

Blades are straight down the back.

Muscle Backs are convex behind the hitting area.

[Dewdman42]

probably not.  Now what is it?

[WUTiger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewdman42

After quite a few years with my Taylor Made RAC HT's, I'm finally ready for some new irons, mainly because I want better shafts. ...

... My hc is around 15, particularly iron play (around the green is my weakness at the moment). ...

...  And my swing has indeed improved a lot.  I'm not sure that penalizing my mis hits with harshness to my hands is going to make any difference to my improvement. ...

Most of the time I am also not really trying to "shape" my shots, though occasionally I do attempt a draw or cut shot, most often not very successfully.  Is that because my RAC's just don't respond well to that? I also rarely get the ball to roll backwards on the green.  Is that where the players irons would reward me with good hits?  Are player's irons more likely to have consistent distance (assuming pure shots)?

You might start by deciding what trajectory you want, and getting on a launch monitor to see what shaft type would be best for you. Then, work your way into selecting an iron model.

You might make the move from SGI to GI irons, but Players... what's the benefit? The main benefit of Players over GI - if you had time to develop a player's quality swing - would be keeping the ball lower when you wanted to. Player's clubs have a high Vertical Center of Gravity (VCOG), which helps launch the ball lower. Also, Player's clubs allow more precise shot bending than GI or SGI... provided again you have a Player's caliber swing. Otherwise, Player's clubs will yield fewer OK shots and more clear misses.

As for basic draws and fades, you can do that with any model of irons - if you understand how a golf swing works.

In December 2011, Golf Digest, editor Mike Stachura compares Players, GI and SGI irons in an interesting piece called "Projectile Dysfunction" (pp. 71-73). There's even a six-item assessment quiz which claims to help golfers choose iron category. You may have to find a copy of the mag - GD online would only yield a teaser blurb.

As for backspin ("ball to roll backwards..."), look at your swing mechanics, the club shaft, and the ball you play. Do some deep research on shafts, and in second-level info the OEMs mention the spin pattern of the shaft. Backspin tends to rise with amount of clubhead speed, so don't expect a lot of backspin if the shaft is too stiff. Also, what type of ball do you play? High spin, midspin or distance? Unless you have a really hard swing, don't expect much backspin with distance balls.

Hint on the launch monitor: Bring a couple of sleeves of the ball you normally play. If you play midspin, and the golf shop provides you with distance balls, you won't get an accurate reflection of how the irons function with your ball.

Also: consider getting a ball fitting - make sure the ball you choose matches your playing objectives.

[GaijinGolfer]

I say pull the trigger if you can find a set that you like.  I personally dont find GI or even SGI irons that much more forgiving than players' CBs.  A bad swing is going to give you the same result with either club.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

I say pull the trigger if you can find a set that you like.  I personally dont find GI or even SGI irons that much more forgiving than players' CBs.  A bad swing is going to give you the same result with either club.

TWI, you're right about bad swings. But, marginal swings will produce better results with GI or SGI clubs than Player's clubs. Mainly, better distance and less left or right error.

GI and SGI clubs have a larger sweet zone than a Player's club. Sweet zone is the area on a club face which will produce an OK shot. The sweet zones are biggest on SGI clubs, smallest on Player's clubs. (The traditional sweet spot actually is the tiny, pea-sized ideal impact point for any clubface; it's the same size in any club. Sweet zones vary in size)

[Cut68]

I've had a similar internal debate, as I bought new clubs yesterday. In the end though, I think for 90% of us, more forgiveness than we need is better. I have a sweet set of blades, but I only pull them out when I'm on fire. I bought some JPX 800's yesterday, they were miles ahead of anything else I tried (miles ahead for me, that is) I think, if you wanted to go to something like the JPX or the AP1, you might find that works for you. Jumping to an AP2 or an MP, you might find out quickly that you aren't ready, and for me, those aren't really clubs that you can "grow" into. Yes, the forged clubs, when hit well, will always feel the best. They're like butter. But catch it on the toe on a cool day, and you may wish you had something else.

[saevel25]

Golf clubs today are not as hard to hit as before. Also if you hit the AP2's good with the shorter irons, and the AP1's with the longer, mix and match it. Any place that sells clubs should be able to order any combination of clubs you want. But some player clubs might not be as tough to hit as you think they are. Really they are getting good at making clubs forgiving and have great feel. I prefer to get as close to player irons as possible. With modern day player irons, the VCOG isn't really that high. If you look at Ralph Maltby numbers, they give the VCOG, and really the highest VCOG of player irons i saw were the Taylormade R9, other than that they are all very similar. GI's and SuperGI's will have lower VCOG's, but i dont think its that significant. To me the real issue is MOI, and size of the clubhead. Player irons are smaller, and have a lower MOI, so basically the sweet spot is alot smaller, and misshots will not end up going the distance you want, like if you hit the ball on the toe..

[Danattherock]

Check into the Miura 9003.

You and I play at a similar level. I got these irons last week and they are head and shoulders above anything I have ever hit. Butter. Piercing trajectory, long, and soft but solid feel at impact. They are forgiving enough, but not like the shovels most folks sell. Just an incredible golf club design for those of us still needing some help. Got mine from Chip Usher (site is Usher Golf) in Savannah,Ga. Check out his site and give him a call if interested. He is cheaper than anyone I found and had my clubs built and on my door steps in 2 days. I got 3 Miura wedges last year and they are insane. That is what made me call Chip recently and order these 9003's. Depending on where you are, he may send you a demo club to try out. Top shelf guy. Amazing golf club. These forged Miura's are something else man. Read up on them and see what you think.

-Dan

[kctay]

It mostly mystifies me that a 17+ handicap would play forged irons.  Pretty clubs though.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by kctay

It mostly mystifies me that a 17+ handicap would play forged irons.  Pretty clubs though.

Handicap figures aren't always a good indication of a person's ball striking. They could have a high handicap because they can't use a driver or woods, they could have a high handicap because they can't pitch or chip or their putting is appalling, they could have a high handicap because they got a handicap card when they started playing 20 years ago but have never entered any new handicap cards that reflect their true game level.

[kctay]

It's your right to disagree, but I'll stick by my original statement.  I believe also that handicap figures are a good indication of a persons ball striking, and overall play.  If you don't enter scores, it's pretty obvious.

[rustyredcab]

Depending where you read, Mizuno JPX-800's are often classified as game improvement. They improved mine. They are more "player" than I thought I could handle until I tried them.

For me, when I knew I was more interested in distance control than distance, and controlling ball flight than getting the ball up... then I knew it was time to get more of a players club than my old Fusions. It was a great move for me.

Note that I did not get a true "players iron."

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by kctay

It mostly mystifies me that a 17+ handicap would play forged irons.  Pretty clubs though.

They might be forged, but that doesn't take away from the fact they're obviously game improvement irons. They're probably easier to get airborne than a lot of cast irons.

[kctay]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Depending where you read, Mizuno JPX-800's are often classified as game improvement. They improved mine. They are more "player" than I thought I could handle until I tried them.

For me, when I knew I was more interested in distance control than distance, and controlling ball flight than getting the ball up... then I knew it was time to get more of a players club than my old Fusions. It was a great move for me.

Note that I did not get a true "players iron."

That Mizuno is a great iron, I'm seriously looking at these now to replace my VR-Pro cavities........