My Swing (Ben85)

[Ben85]

G'day Everyone,

After reading various threads here on TheSandTrap and discovering that there are many knowledgeable members, I decided to register an account to — hopefully — receive some guidance on how I could improve my golf swing. Typically speaking, I am satisfied with the distance/power produced (which I would be willing to sacrifice), but the accuracy needs major improvement.

I feel as if I have poisoned my mind with too much conflicting information from various teaching professionals and I no longer know which direction I am heading in. I've experimented with various methods (as demonstrated in the videos below), but I kept coming back to material that was taught by Brian Manzella. In particular, I believed that understanding how to control the club-face using fundamentals from his "Never Slice Again" video was going to be the key to my golf swing progressing to the next level. However, I couldn't master the timing and struggled with inconsistency (resulting in misses on both sides of the course).

2010/07/21: Experimenting with "The Golfing Machine".

2010/07/21: Experimenting with "The Golfing Machine".

2010/11/24: Experimenting with a body orientated release (as opposed to arms/hands orientated release).

2010/12/07: After consulting a local teaching professional (slow motion).

2011/07/07: Experimenting with a straighter spine.

2011/08/13: No idea what I was working on.

2012/07/23: Current state of the golf swing after returning from a hiatus.

If nothing else, the above videos serve as evidence that I am a confused and broken golfer. As a side note, in the third video (where I am focusing on a body orientated release), the impact was unreal. If you turn up the sound on your PC, you should hear the ball fizzing through the air. I feel that the body orientated release warrants more experimentation, as I felt like the timing could be less precise and I could really go after it.

Anyway, my current handicap is 4.4, which hasn't improved from my handicap of 3.8 from two years ago. I am really hoping to improve and avoid another two miserable years of zero improvement. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

[Beachcomber]

Hi Ben, welcome to TST!  Before I comment on your golfswing... Please ask a Mod to move this thread to the 'Myswing' thread.  It will get a lot more looks that way and I'm sure you'll get some solid advice.  If your playing a 4.4 right now, then you're playing solid golf.

From reading your misses being on both sides of the course... We need to get you into a setup so that you can in a sense... Eliminate one side of the course.  So if you miss - your misses are typically to one side.  And you can come to lean on a stock shot that will help you score.

A lot of folks on this site use Stack and Tilt (I myself have been influenced by it)... And The Golf Machine (TGM) instruction is rock solid for understanding the fundamentals of pressure points and power accumulators.  If you have grasped those items from TGM... Then you are ahead of the curve in my opinion.  The new form of instruction - which is being pushed by many of the leaders of this site is 'The 5 Simple Keys'.  5SK.  The 5SK is basically a culmination of TGM (Homer Kelley), MORAD (Mac O'Grady) and S&T; influences as well.

Learn the 5 keys - and you will become a better golfer.  Many of them you'll recognize if you have studied TGM.

Good luck!

[Beachcomber]

Your swing looks solid.  A little quick - but your not throwing away power as it appears you have nice extensor action into impact.

The thing I noticed is that it looks like your legs could be worked on from A5 to A8. Mainly the downswing - left straight arm straight and parallel to the ground is A5 to A8 where the shaft is parallel to the ground post impact.  So from A5 to A8, your right knee is going toward the golf ball.

Watch this video from Mario Bevilacqua, who is a certified 5SK instructor... It should help you understand what I'm talking about.

By the way, I have the same issue in my swing and need to address it as well.. But before I focus on that - I'm working on my right elbow placement and waist/knee bend at address.  My focus on my legs will come later (baby steps!!).

[iacas]

Welcome to the site.

Confusion is a problem.

Read this: http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introducing-five-simple-keys .

This system is getting tremendous feedback and is being adopted quickly by many because it makes things simple and removes a lot of clutter. Everything you need to do is one of those five things. If your head is relatively steady, move on to Key #2. If you have that down, move on to Key #3 (looking at your swings I'd probably touch up Key #2 work and then move on to #3).

The actual stuff you need to do to work on each key may or may not be a bit more complicated than just saying "Key #3" but it will help you to focus your practice on working towards achieving something that's measurable and achievable.

[logman]

Nice swing Ben, looks real good to me.

[Ben85]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

The new form of instruction - which is being pushed by many of the leaders of this site is 'The 5 Simple Keys'.  5SK.  The 5SK is basically a culmination of TGM (Homer Kelley), MORAD (Mac O'Grady) and S&T; influences as well.

Cool, thanks for replying. "5 Simple Keys" sounds interesting. I have "The Golfing Machine" book and am familiar with most of the terms. I have also tried "Stack and Tilt" but always felt that I was missing key ingredients (which I couldn't piece together from the DVDs and internet research). I have been curious about "MORAD", but it seemed to be a secret society that was inaccessible (for me, at least).

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

The thing I noticed is that it looks like your legs could be worked on from A5 to A8.

It's funny that you mention that, whilst looking through side-on slow motion videos, I noticed the — for lack of a better description — "bounce and spin" of the hips and legs. I didn't know what was causing it or how to go about fixing it.

Originally Posted by iacas

...looking at your swings I'd probably touch up Key #2 work and then move on to #3...

Thanks for replying. Hanging back on my rear (right) leg has always been a problem for me. I thought I had corrected it, but clearly not. It's amazing how quickly things can regress if you don't stay persistent. Focusing on keeping my weight forward has helped — I'm hitting bullets with my 3 wood (although, I'm struggling with my driver which I'm assuming is due to a steep angle of attack).

Originally Posted by logman

Nice swing Ben, looks real good to me.

Thank you, there is still lots of room for improvement though!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ben85

Cool, thanks for replying. "5 Simple Keys" sounds interesting. I have "The Golfing Machine" book and am familiar with most of the terms. I have also tried "Stack and Tilt" but always felt that I was missing key ingredients (which I couldn't piece together from the DVDs and internet research). I have been curious about "MORAD", but it seemed to be a secret society that was inaccessible (for me, at least).

FWIW I mentioned 5SK as a means of simplifying things for you. Clearing out some clutter. If you can do those five things, you'll be a good ballstriker and a good golfer.

As a 4.4 you're probably spending a lot more time working on Key #4 and #5 than the first three (though we do have a lot of golfers at even 1 and 2 indexes who flip the club a little).

Almost all of us in 5SK have backgrounds in S&T;, MORAD, TGM, and others. Chuck Evans essentially compiled the notes and wrote the 7th edition of TGM, many of us have attended MORAD schools or spent a lot of time with MORAD instructors (it is a secret society yes :P), etc.

As I said each of the 5SK have a lot of little pieces beneath them, and they'll vary if you want to fade the ball versus someone who wants to draw the ball, but if you are feeling "cluttered" then simply focus on which key you need to work on most and then break that down to the little individual piece within that Key which is the top priority in that. Focus on one or maybe two things at a time, max.

[logman]

" If you can do those five things, you'll be a good ballstriker and a good golfer."........Really......Just 5? What if he kept his "head steady" and hit the ball worse, is that possible?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

" If you can do those five things, you'll be a good ballstriker and a good golfer."........Really......Just 5? What if he kept his "head steady" and hit the ball worse, is that possible?

Yep, just five things to prioritize. The first three deal with striking the ball solidly and the last two deal with controlling the flight.

I'm virtually certain nobody involved with 5SK has ever seen a golfer who is a better ball striker moving his head around six inches (given a somewhat normal setup) than keeping it relatively steady. And you never hear of a player practicing or working on moving their head around more. No good player, anyway. Maybe some duffer trying to "load into his right side" or "get his left shoulder over his right knee" or something.

But hey, what do we know? 5SK guys have only taught major champions, turned 12 handicappers into plus handicappers, studied thousands of golf swings, done rigorous testing with loads of data, talked with and learned from the leading biomechanists and scientists, and so on.

P.S. He's a 4.4 with a steady head already. It's not a coincidence that the lower you go in handicaps the less a player's head will tend to move around.

[logman]

I'm not contesting that a steady head is a good thing. Steady head is common in most sports. But your elevation of steady head into a "key" seems to me to give the steady head an importance that it doesn't deserve. I'm sure in your testing there would have been many high ranked and respected golfers who move there heads more than some others, of course, so what is the importance of that information. Is it important at all? Are the steady head brigade better golfers than the guys that seem to have a looser approach to their body?. Aren't you extrapolating an observation into a "must follow".

So would a "good" player be a better player if he reduced his head movement? That would be very hard to measure. So a guy comes in to "5 golf secrets" head quarters and you reduce his head movement from 3" to 2".........then what ,you track his scores for the next 20 rounds to see if he's improved? That's improvement isn't it? Just because his swing might LOOK better in it's post modified form doesn't mean he's a better golfer.

The idea that a steady head is a "key" to better golf is silly. Steady head is a golf tip that you'd find on a "how to play golf" pamphlet. The Idea that "because the pros do it then that's what'l make me be a better golfer" is a false logic.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

So would a "good" player be a better player if he reduced his head movement? That would be very hard to measure. So a guy comes in to "5 golf secrets" head quarters and you reduce his head movement from 3" to 2".........then what ,you track his scores for the next 20 rounds to see if he's improved? That's improvement isn't it? Just because his swing might LOOK better in it's post modified form doesn't mean he's a better golfer.

Statements like this make it clear to me that you have no idea how we teach, prioritize, etc.

Originally Posted by logman

The idea that a steady head is a "key" to better golf is silly. Steady head is a golf tip that you'd find on a "how to play golf" pamphlet. The Idea that "because the pros do it then that's what'l make me be a better golfer" is a false logic.

Thanks for your opinion; this thread (Ben85's thread) ain't the place for it.

[Ben85]

I'll get another swing video uploaded tomorrow. I feel I'm getting the weight forward sufficiently now, the consistency of contact (and misses — which are typically low cuts) has improved. Although I'm no expert, I believe the misses (i.e. low cuts) may be due to the shoulder turn being too shallow and the left shoulder not working downwards correctly (which also seems to make it harder to achieve the flat left wrist).

[Ben85]

Two questions:

1) Can I edit the original post to add new swing videos?

2) I notice "Evolvr" being mentioned a lot. Would this be beneficial to join for learning "5SK"?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ben85

Two questions:

1) Can I edit the original post to add new swing videos?

2) I notice "Evolvr" being mentioned a lot. Would this be beneficial to join for learning "5SK"?

1) No, you just post new videos here, as a new post, later on in the thread. That way you have a record of your progress (and other people can see the before and after videos too).

2) http://evolvr.com/ - it's simply our online academy. We'll work with you on improving your 5SK, yes. It's just online golf lessons, though, so if you're not near a 5SK instructor, then it's worked out really well for a lot of people.

[Ben85]

Thanks for the response. I have gone ahead and joined "Evolvr" and uploaded my initial videos. After I finished splicing together the swing videos, I started goofing around...

[Beachcomber]

Now that's just showing off. :D

[Ben85]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Now that's just showing off. :D

Clearly, I have too much time on my hands.

[Ben85]

I'm guessing that signing up for "Evolvr" the week of the PGA Championship may not have been ideal. Any idea when I might get an analysis back?