How difficult are PGA Tour course setups?

[Lihu]

Unfortunately not. The systems are only equal if you shoot exactly the score every time, the bigger the variation in your scores the further above a USGA handicap a CONGU one is.

Take our theoretical golfer at scratch and run those scores again and under the USGA system he stays the same. Under CONGU he goes up 0.1 for every score over 73 and doesn't go down for the 72s (he's already scratch. Over time scoring like this he's back up to 1.5 ish under CONGU but under USGA he remains at scratch.

Yes, but a scratch golfer would most likely have a pretty low variation from score to score. It's not like me where I score (on 9 holes) about 47,48,42,47,43,42, 57, etc. This is why I am a bogey golfer.

[Nosevi]

Absolutely, and in our hypothetical example I've given our golfer only 4 shots spread from his best round when he's really on his game to a day when it's howling a gale and he's having an off day, in reality even for a really good golfer it would be more than this. With the scores you've posted the swing over 18 holes would be 30 shots and the difference between your USGA handicap and what you would get under CONGU would be far more probably 5 shots or so at a guess.

[hopefulhacker]

Yes, but a scratch golfer would most likely have a pretty low variation from score to score. It's not like me where I score (on 9 holes) about 47,48,42,47,43,42, 57, etc. This is why I am a bogey golfer.

I have been scoring steadily over the past 3 months 86-89 range... My handicap hasn't changed from 17 as we are in our Winter Season. Oct - Mar.

Realistically, my HC won't change until the end of the Winter Rules in March...sometimes even until April or May

That's the worst thing about our system imo,

I play in my weekly club competition throughout the winter, our HC system is mainly based on competition golf, but even though we play these competitions all through the winter they are counted as Non Qualifying Rounds for Handicap Purposes as there is "lift, clean and place" in affect.

The thinking is that Higher HC golfers benefit more from "lift, clean and place" so it would be unfair to use these comps to go towards your HC... It makes a little sense but it's a massive inconvenience.

and another one

Very frustrating for someone that wants to see their HC drop

[Nosevi]

Absolutely. My lowest rounds are 4 under par (total fluke, even bounced a ball off an out of bounds stake :) ), a couple at 2 under, and a couple at 1 under......... none of which will count towards my handicap - winter and social golf, so I remain a 5 handicapper........ Who will irritate the hell out of the other members (hopefully) when the competition season starts again. And now I'm a cat 1 the rules are changing so every one of my scores now has to be in a comp, no supplementary scores allowed for cat 1 now. I truly think the US system is far more sensible. It shows what level you are, or at least can play at. The CONGU system is set up to try to stop you getting a low handicap, everything about it is to try to make it as hard as possible. Yes it means that Scratch and better players are lower than the US system, but that doesn't make it a sensible system.

[Lihu]

Absolutely. My lowest rounds are 4 under par (total fluke, even bounced a ball off an out of bounds stake :) ), a couple at 2 under, and a couple at 1 under......... none of which will count towards my handicap - winter and social golf, so I remain a 5 handicapper........ Who will irritate the hell out of the other members (hopefully) when the competition season starts again. And now I'm a cat 1 the rules are changing so every one of my scores now has to be in a comp, no supplementary scores allowed for cat 1 now.

I truly think the US system is far more sensible. It shows what level you are, or at least can play at. The CONGU system is set up to try to stop you getting a low handicap, everything about it is to try to make it as hard as possible. Yes it means that Scratch and better players are lower than the US system, but that doesn't make it a sensible system.

That explains why there are so few of them as well (e.g., 448 in Scotland?).

[Nosevi]

I really didn't mean it to come over as "Our golfers are better than your golfers" - they aren't I'm sure we're all about the same. It's just that, due to the 2 different systems, what we call a scratch golfer, or a plus 4 or an 18 handicapper is a different thing. "Our scratch players are better than your scratch players." Sounds like I am but I'm not. What we term a 'scratch player' is what you term a 'plus 2 handicap', and they're about the same.

[Nosevi]

p.s. The Scottish survey was a few years ago so there may be a few more now but it won't be by a lot :)

[Lihu]

I really didn't mean it to come over as "Our golfers are better than your golfers" - they aren't I'm sure we're all about the same. It's just that, due to the 2 different systems, what we call a scratch golfer, or a plus 4 or an 18 handicapper is a different thing.

"Our scratch players are better than your scratch players." Sounds like I am but I'm not. What we term a 'scratch player' is what you term a 'plus 2 handicap', and they're about the same.

Yes, I see this.

There are probably the same percentage of people golfing at the same relative skill levels no matter the handicap system.

There are probably about 450 +2 handicap golfers in the Eastern LA county area (about half of the 9.9 million total for LA county), with roughly the same population as Scotland (5 million).

[Nosevi]

I wouldn't be at all surprised :) Right, really done now. Like I said, good debate. If anyone else comes on and says I'm wrong or I used a picture of a midget in that bunker at the start or something, I'll ignore them. p.s. The thread was about handicap systems too, Dad, sorry :)

[hopefulhacker]

A potentially sensitive area handled very well and explained in great detail, kudos Nosevi. I'm not singing anymore ;)

[Lihu]

I wouldn't be at all surprised :)

Right, really done now. Like I said, good debate. If anyone else comes on and says I'm wrong or I used a picture of a midget in that bunker at the start or something, I'll ignore them.

p.s. The thread was about handicap systems too, Dad, sorry :)

This was kind of implicit, but understood because it is a part of the argument. However, your definition of scratch at +2 hovers close to "mini-tour pro" level. So, of course, a +2 would not get blown away on a tour pro course. Erik already said that the average tour pro hovers around a +4 to +5.

I would expect that you, at an unofficial 3 CONGU handicap (and a USGA 1 handicap?), would be only 6 to 8 strokes behind the average tour pro per round. This would only put you at 24-32 strokes behind the field after a tournament. That's doesn't sound like someone getting blown away by the course. Blown away by the tournament field, yes, but not by the course.

[Nosevi]

Agreed mate :)

[imcheesehead1]

I just started playing. My 3rd year, I shoot 85-100. Where I live there aren't hardly any good courses much less really good ones. I didn't even know what a good course was until I traveled to Denver. While not a PGA course it was PGA like in that I didn't lose balls when I missed the fairway. The greens were not full of unfixed divots. I easily shot my best golf there over 4 days. It was markedly easier not having to take a penalty because I couldn't find a ball in knee deep grass

So my point is that better courses play better. I frankly cannot stand to go to a course with "natural" grass areas now that I have experienced a real course. Although my drives are much straighter now I would probably be ok. But that one time I wasn't and hit into some knee deep grass just off the fairway I'd be very very unhappy!

[Mike Boatright]

I think pga tour courses allow for maximum distance with the fast fairways and one could easily adapt after a while. You look at guys like Ricky Fowler and Zach jhosnon and you think to yourself that their not that intimidating right? It's not what golf is all about it's about skill and consistency and that's what they do time and time again.

[Kenny Lee]

I played Oakmont shortly after the 2010 US Women's Open.

I shot 86 from the blue tees. Pretty sure it was par 71, and around 6,500 yards.

The greens are beyond fast.

During my round, I never hit a golf ball into a bunker. But I putted two balls into bunkers. Just brutal.

[ccotenj]

I think pga tour courses allow for maximum distance with the fast fairways and one could easily adapt after a while.

i don't think it is as simple as that.... :) hardest course i ever played was the old sawgrass course right after they played the tpc (the contractor i worked for was a member)... i was around a 4 hc at the time, and i shot 92... and it was a GOOD 92... i think i could have played that course 100 times and never broken 85... i played the tpc course at sawgrass the year after it opened... that thing was a bitch... someone mentioned bethpage black... i have not played it since the usga "fixed it up" (and it needed fixing)... i do know that prior to the rehab, it was no bargain, as it was rather poorly maintained, and the combination of course difficulty and poor maintenance made for some tough conditions... one other that was right up there (and was rather humbling) was wachesaw east in myrtle right before a lpga event... i was around an 8 at the time, and i played as good as i could possibly play and still shot 91, the greens ate me alive... i then watched the ladies play it and make me look like i had never picked up a club before... :-P

[Scotsclaff]

I think there's plenty scope for making some of the USPGA courses a bit more tasking for the players,when scores like 22-24 under are being posted,surely!

[Mike Boatright]

Most people who play with me say wow you hit the ball like a pro. Compared to most golfers I do. But compared to real tour pros I stink. My best was a plus 3 years ago. I play with all levels of pros, tour, senior, mini tours, club pros and Pats.

Anyone on any tour making money is far beyound scratch it's not comprehensible until you actually play with them.

Then you shake your head and just say, these guys and girls are really that good.

I watch them play everyday on the Golf channel they are not hitting 280 yard 7 irons and 440 yard drives. They make a lot of mistakes and look to me like they are comfortable out there and manage their game well average about 286.00 yards of the tee.