Passive golf swing?

[SubPar]

I have to chime in on that point, though - those iron swings were like 60%. No way that guy hit that 3I 215-230 yards. I'm 6', 190 lbs, with long arms. I know that I have good swing mechanics, and I know that I've made very tense-free, good swings, and I don't often hit it 300. I realize ball-striking is important and all that, but those swings simply could not send a regulation golf ball those distances. IMHO.

I mentioned to Ron this morning that the yardages on his video may not be the best idea. He said it was not his intention to imply that those were exact yardages he would hit with that exact swing. He said if he were hitting his full distance with the clubs he would "step on it", meaning faster core rotation. I suggested he put up some videos with swings intended to deliver specific results indicated, which he agreed to do.

SubPar

[Flogger]

Hello All:

I'm new to "The Sand Trap" thing and I can tell you that I love the site already! One of my friends is Subpar and he told me about this site and I've read several pages already and I like what I see.

I view my instruction as an open forum and I take my golf education very serious. I also don't think for one second that I have all of the answers and as a matter of fact, the second I think that I'm done learning golf, teaching or living for that fact I should quit all three.

The love that I have for this game is immense and I would love to share it with the world. Now I did see a bit of the "distance" thing and I will certainly change my web-site and remove them as some of you have suggested. I clearly see your point of view and I agree.

I'm also new to the web-site world and of course there's no way to be unflappable and mistakes OBVIOUSLY have been made but what the heck. It's all a learning process.

The one point that I would like to drive home here on this open forum is if anyone that lives in the Southern California area, that would like to experience my methodology, I will be more than happy to put together a full 1 day clinic (FREE OF COURSE balls not included) to help every single one of you, to see how physically easy my system is. Before you think about that just know that all qualified instructors (I hope) have the same goal in mind that I have and that's to improve each and every one of you. The physical aspect of golf is easy ONLY if you approach a new method with an open mind.

Again, my intention to have a web-site is not to prove my method or disprove anyone else’s method. My love for the game makes me want to shout at the top of my lungs and share it with all of you, physically! Mentally, you're on your own!

Just know this, although I am a +3 doesn't mean that I wasn't a 35 hdcp at one point and more than likely I had the exact same issues, faults and headaches you may be going through.

In ending this banter, I welcome any constructive criticism any of you have to offer.

Fairways & Greens.

Regards,
Ron del Barrio

[BritBoy]

I think taking out the distance claims from your site would be a great idea. The first thing I think when someone tells me huge distances is “who cares”. You would grab my attention if you said “closer to the pin”, or if you really want me to get excited tell me how I will get more consistent.

There is no doubt your swing looks incredibly smooth and effortless, although you would have to sell the head move pretty hard to me. The head thing, to me anyway, says way too much letting go than I am even willing to think about.

I have worked with my current coach for almost two years now. When I started going to him I was playing to a 9. He showed me my swing on video and I almost dropped dead from embarrassment, I couldn’t believe that was my swing. We made some huge swing changes, I made a commitment to stick with them, and my handicap actually went up to around a 15 before things started to come together. Personally I don’t think I could mentally take another round of swing changes, but that’s not to say that it’s not the right program for others, obviously subpar is sold.

If you had to break it down, who would you say your program is best suited for?

Is it the guy that needs more distance (not wants it, there’s a difference)?

Is it for the low handicap player that needs help now that the window of opportunity small?

Finally… the 3 wood from the deck….. it definitely looked like you hit it a little chubby… well??????

Oh and welcome to the Forum

[SubPar]

...There is no doubt your swing looks incredibly smooth and effortless, although you would have to sell the head move pretty hard to me. The head thing, to me anyway, says way too much letting go than I am even willing to think about.

I have seen

Ron hit balls at the range and been surprised at how effortless it looks and how much power he generates. However, last weekend he decided to take an afternoon off and play a round with myself and two of my friends. I was totally unprepared for the experience of seeing this "passive" thing working on the course. After Ron hit his first drive, which went about 65 yds past all of us, one of my buddies said he thought it was going to be a practice swing because it looked so casual and with a little pause at the top. I kid you not, he took my 6 iron on a 200 yd par 3 and hit the ball 10-12 feet past the stick with the same swing he demonstrates on his website. The ball was so on-line I could barely see it as it was dead behind the flag. He was goofing around, wearing sandals and teeing off barefoot and was -3 through 11 holes (on recently punched greens). It was getting dark on us and he quit at 11 which was next to the parking lot. We didn't get to complete the round but it is safe to say he would have ended up 5 or 6 under. I learned a lot that day becasue I was then able to connect what he teaches to actual on-course technique. He has offered to do a clinic for Sand Trap members in the LA area. It could only help to take a look at this method. I'll press him to start a thread restating the offer. SubPar

[Leek]

This looks so simple yet I have a hard time taking "the hit" out of my swing. You've heard commentators during tournament coverage mention the importance of tempo or possibly how David Toms putts and swings like there is "no ball there". It is human nature to see the ball as the target and to try to ‘hit’ it, but in those rare moments when I can forget the ball and just let it get in the way during a complete swing I hit it so much better.

You gotta understand, Toms is Brian Manzella's pupil. Brian says Toms had a very bad hook swing, and his current swing is what Brian calls Never Hook Again. It's an anti left swing. If you aren't a powerful ball striker and an underplane hooker, it's probably the wrong model for YOU.

There is no one right way to swing the club, it depends on your faults and tendencies.

[SubPar]

You gotta understand, Toms is Brian Manzella's pupil. Brian says Toms had a very bad hook swing, and his current swing is what Brian calls Never Hook Again. It's an anti left swing. If you aren't a powerful ball striker and an underplane hooker, it's probably the wrong model for YOU.

I guess you are right. Toms' swing which is a model of balance, tempo and consistency is not for everyone.

SubPar

[mentos]

Ron,

I am grateful that there are people out there like you. Unfortunately I live in the east coast and am unable to partake of your experience. I do appreciate your website and have tried those techniques. These days my swing has been very bad. From reading all of these websites and tips, my muscle memory is pretty bad. I am going to the driving range at least once a week and am getting more inconsistent. Your method appears similar to the 1 plane swing. Is this correct? I would love to be able to adopt your swing. Hopefully with more practice I can. thank you, Tom

Hello All:

[maelkoth]

I tried out his methods this morning. I just picked up golf half a year ago, so making swing changes wasn't too restrictive. I need some more practice with ron's techniques, but compared to my other method of swinging where I would attack the ball, ron's techniques feel a lot more free-flowing, like I'm gliding through the ball. It also felt like I was making better contact with ron's technique.

Distance is relatively the same. Shot dispersion was worse with the ron swing, as occasionally I would shank it, although this is primarily due to not practicing enough with his techniques.

[SubPar]

I usually hit better after watching his videos becasue I get a clear image of the tempo and form. You do miss hit a few at first but that is to be expected.

I can actually hit better shots if I use the early head turn, but I am not yet ready to take that to the course. When I let my head turn early I swing "through" the ball rather than "at the ball", which produces a better trajectory and more spin.

SubPar

[tm22721]

Bringing your head up early could cause many people to open their shoulders early and come out of the shot. Keeping your head down is a tried and proven way to make your right shoulder go under instead of around. A stubborn flaw that plagues many amateurs including me.

The idea that we don't need weight shift is not new. But I don't see many pros employing it not even Baddeley who is supposed to be a devotee of stack and tilt.

[SubPar]

Bringing your head up early could cause many people to open their shoulders early and come out of the shot. Keeping your head down is a tried and proven way to make your right shoulder go under instead of around.

Wonder why Tiger said he is interested in incorporating this Anika-like head move into his game? Maybe he likes the way it promotes shoulder rotation through impact. Or how it is easy on the back.

The idea that we don't need weight shift is not new. But I don't see many pros employing it not even Baddeley who is supposed to be a devotee of stack and tilt.

S&T; or not, with the possible exception of the driver, you really don't want much weight shift backward on the take-away. But you can argue details all day, there are plently of different ways to deliver power to the ball. Kenny Perry is long off the tee and his head bobs up and down.

SubPar

[kc8kir]

Golf instruction has advocated swinging through the ball (as though it wasn't there) for years. All the greats did this in one way or another. It produces acceleration through the shot, which is vital for letting the club do the work and stay on path. As far as the head thing goes, "keep your head down" is a misused term, just like "shift your weight to the right". Keeping the head down promotes low chin positions and poor posture. The weight (just like a pitcher throwing a fast ball) must naturally go to the inside of the rear foot (Nicklaus termed this "playing golf from inside the feet"). Ron's method appears to be taking your focus off hitting the ball and into feeling gravity rule the club (allowing for that all important lag). Even Tiger talks about not rushing the top of the swing and allowing gravity to rule before applying power to the swing (whip, sling, etc). Notice though that Ron does NOT change spine angle prior to impact. He rotate and preserves it, allowing the head to rotate along with the shot. Perfectly fine because the impact position, the moment of truth, is preserved and left unhindered.

It's really too bad I don't live in SoCal or I would take Ron up on his offer.

All you have to do is swing a blade once, through the sweet spot, with a smooth swing, to realize it doesn't take a body builder to make that ball fly like the devil is chasing it.

[Joe92385]

It looks like this thread was kind of revived from the dead, but if there's still talk of a clinic, I'm down for any help I can get!

[MPS67]

I've looked as Ron's videos very carefully and noticed a few things.

His hips and lower body are not too active when initiating the downswing. It's mostly a timed rotary momentum and acceleration. I can see more hip pull with his longer clubs such as the woods and driver though. But because he doesn't take advantage of his lower body pulling his shoulders through an inside slot, he must rely on good timing and synchronization with the pull of gravity and club to ball impact. If he's off a little, he's going to hit a little fat. Look carefully at the ruffled grass an inch or two before the ball with some of his swing samples. When hitting irons, he suggests placing the ball in the middle of his stance, or even back a touch. This is ensure that he's swinging down into the back of the ball.

I guess that this swing method works well for him. But will it be a problem with bad lies? Can he hit down steeper and with more power in order to compress the ball in bad situations? I seem to feel that this swing isn't going to be as repeatable and versatile.

[lolzzlolzz]

Bringing your head up early could cause many people to open their shoulders early and come out of the shot. Keeping your head down is a tried and proven way to make your right shoulder go under instead of around. A stubborn flaw that plagues many amateurs including me.

"Keep your head down" is bad advice. Hogan explains it better than me:

Say a golfer picks his head up and mis-hits his shot badly. His partner will usually tell him, "You didn't keep your head down," as if this were the true cause of his poor shot. It isn't. The true cause was some faulty movement in the golfer's swing that made him pull his head up. For example, if the golfer starts down form the top with his shoulder or his hands and not with his hips, he can't possibly hold his head where it should be. If you are swinging correctly, on the other hand, you can't look at anything but the ball.

It's time to start thinking in terms of the cause and not the result for most golfers.

[sonicblue]

"Keep your head down" is bad advice. Hogan explains it better than me:

Well said. That's like people who say, 'he pushed that putt,' as if that explains the problem. IMO, people push putts, not because of a stroke/setup problem, but because they changed their mind midstroke, because they didn't trust their read.

[kc8kir]

Subpar and Ron,

Thanks for posting both of you. Here is what I suggest. Subpar get a few people together and do the clinic. Videotape it and post it here. Then we can see this swing method in the works with players other than Ron himself. Absolutely meaning no offense to you Ron, but after playing as long as you have, you have certainly developed a hightened ability to strike the ball consistently in the same spot without even looking at it. Many of us high handicappers are still struggling to consistently find the ball (no doubt because we try to hit the ball, shift our weight, keep our head down, yada yada yada... ).

I personally don't doubt the distances. With good balance and center contact, shots fly much farther than people realize for a given club speed, especially with blades.

As for me, I am going to give the methodology a shot at the range in the next few days. I'll report back later.

[SubPar]

Subpar and Ron,

The main benefit of a clinic would be to see Ron's technique up close and live. As with any swing changes, no one is going to get it the first time out. Ron has computer gear and a camera that can capture some swings for posting... as long as anyone is willing to have their swing out there for the world to see!

I personally don't doubt the distances. With good balance and center contact, shots fly much farther than people realize for a given club speed, especially with blades.

What I see when Ron swings is the same thing I see when I watch Couples, or any top player live... tremendous acceleration through and beyond impact. It is clear this is largely the result of relaxed grip pressure and lack of tension in the arms. This relaxation, combined with very efficient mechanics, allows the club head to be driven by the centrifugal force generated by the core rotation. Easy to say, hard to do. As for the distances, Ron hit my 6 iron some 205 yards, at sea level... one shot right over the flag. Phil can hit his 9 iron 190-200 when he needs to, so why doubt that great swings produce what seem to be impossible results to most of us.

As for me, I am going to give the methodology a shot at the range in the next few days. I'll report back later.

When I employ the early head rotation at the range, I definitely hit shots more on the target line and with better acceleration through impact. My feeling is the head rotation takes my eyes off the ball so I don't hit "at the ball" and also helps me clear my lower body and shoulders through the shot. I still lack the courage to do that on the course. At first you'll hit a few thin shots, or shanks, because the tendency is to lift up at the same time you tilt the head. But just suffer through that till you get the feel of it.

We can do the clinic. All Ron needs is for a few people on this forum to indicate an interest. SubPar