AndrewM

Re: Annika... another very good point. Swing rhythm is important and can be a good learning tool for showing which swings you are pressing on (pressing as in- nerves, causing a poor tempo and mis-timed shot)

I expect Jerry Kelly to have another good showing. Currently he and Tiger are the only two players to place in the top 10 in the first two majors.

It seems this thread has found a very definitive line... People who know the industry from the inside and people that dont. Lends a lot of credence to the idea of walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

When you quote me saying you should spend another 30% in tips you let me know. Until then, I'll point out that I said a "couple bucks" is enough.. or in my case generally about $5. So your Exaggeration of an additional 25% or more seems to be the sticking point. Still cant afford, or dont think, a couple dollars is reasonable? But if you need to exaggerate to make your point.... well you know how that goes.

As far as exaggerated points... how many drives at the open this year were over 400 yards?? An exaggeration, I dont think so. Next, when you have Actual personal or professional experience, you let me know. Until then every opinion you have is based on conjecture and what you hear from Fox News. If you want some REAL knowledge, read this, its a start at least: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...AGJ0AAI981.DTL As far as my advil example... the issue of back pain was brought up by a previous poster and I applied a perfectly legitimate counterpoint. In addition, as you even noted... what about nicotine? No more smoking during a tournament? And you are right, there are LOTS of things out there... no more cortisone shots either right?

Your swing has no choice but to vary from club to club. The golfing gods decided each club would have a different lie, length, loft and purpose (in general). Because of all those factors, your swing will vary for each. At the vary base of all of that are two things, 1- control/result, and 2- plane. A wedge, by design, is more upright and more wristy than a driver (which is why the whole one plane/ two plane thing is bunk) A driver, is flatter and engages more forearm rotation. Go out on the course and make the same exact swing with a driver and a wedge and I promise one of them will be really bad. Next, a 75 yard SW shot is a bit different mentally and physically than a drive with a 260 yard carry over water. With teh driver, we consider distance with direction, with a wedge we consider direction with distance. But we have a much larger miss available to us with a driver, both in terms of the club face size, and where we want the ball to end up. The key with all of that is not to look like a different golfer... Allow the swing changes to be natural and intuitive without being forced. Grip is the same period... if your grip changes substantially between a straight away basic wedge shot, and a straight away basic drive... you are doing one of them incorrectly. As far as stance and posture, again they are determined by the club, a driver will be more upright, feet a bit wider... wedge, more bent over, feet closer together. Go on youtube and look up some different swings... and you can pick up some key differences right away, but in general... dont think to much, the differences are natural not contrived.

Why are they working out? For the exact reasons you said, endurance and fitness to keep up stamina on the course... NOT purely for brute strength... IE, training to move a 400lb linebacker out of the way. If you cant see the difference between golf and baseball/football or even cycling... then the media has done its job. If you thinking moving that linebacker out of the way... hitting a 400ft home run, or cycling 100 miles and sprinting up mountains is the same as what happens on the golf course, then I cant help you. Golf requires SO much more skill, finesse and mental strength than any of those other sports that are having issues. In baseball, You can hit a homerun anywhere from the foul line in left field to the foul line in right field.... Try hitting a 400 yard drive down a 60 ft fairway... think there might be a difference? Oh and if you miss the baseball and it only dribbles between shortstop and first base, you're still good to go with a base hit.... If your 400 yard drive is mishit and only goes to the ladies tee, you're in trouble. But I guess you are right in a way... if your back hurts after 18 holes, you cant take advil anymore either (that helps you play pain free right?) If you go to the doctor and you have an enlarged prostate, sorry, thats just the way it is... oh you have a vitamin deficiency and need more calcium for stronger bones... Nope, too bad. You have arthritis and cant play? sorry nothing we can do for you.... If we actually sit back and analyze the argument aside from the media and all the hype they stir up... we can come to some pretty substantially different and more universally beneficial conclusions

I dont disagree at the face of it... but if we really sit down and analyze it... Brute strength means Zero in golf... Ask Charles Howell Second, according to Fox News, steroids make you moody (roid rage, right?), give you high blood pressure and heart problems... I am not sure how that would help on a golf course... i mean, you hit a bad shot and you start breaking clubs. Or you are so emotional you cant hold yourself together down the stretch... seems like a losing proposition to me. third, I dont believe any golf tour will ever institute drug testing (well for "performance enhancers") Or maybe, just maybe we have all been lied to by the media and the positive effects of added testosterone in a middle aged or older male, is actually a good thing and Does restore an edge they may have lost, with no real side effects? But you cant have your cake and eat it too... they are either bad in all the way the media says, so therefore not beneficial to golf specifically at least... or maybe they arent as bad as we have been led to believe... and our whole outlook on them should change??? something to think about...

I was gonna bring up Ty... I was at ChampionsGate just after he had been the "phenom"... when he was there every day, riding up in his brand new Escalade with rims etc but couldnt make a cut... Its a sad story really. tiger is the model that every single good young player should follow... Destroy the amateur ranks... win tournaments, BIG tournaments... take the professional exemptions you can get and learn from the experiences... go to college, get to know people, make friends... THEN turn pro and dominate. So far it seems Tiger is the only true phenom that has followed through with the model... but it worked, and worked well... Too much money on the table these days i guess. Look at Dan Summerhays... wins the event as an amateur and turns pro... im sure he is kicking himself that he didnt turn pro before... but if he did, with all the added pressure of Needing to play well... would he have won?? I doubt it.

Was anyone else disgusted by his comments regarding "HGH, Creatine, or steroids" I mean COME ON... first of all creatine isnt even in the same world. Second, if he cant recognize the difference between baseball/football and golf in terms of how much benefit Any substance would give a player, then he has no right to make a single comment. Third, Paul Azinger said it today, and it was what I was thinking all along... how will steroids help you make a 4 footer ? Gary should be ashamed.

In the interest of being reasonable... it is safe to assume that All outside services people pool tips. That includes, valet, bad drop, starter ( if its not some old guy on the tee) and the guys at the end cleaning clubs, bringing them back to the drop etc. General etiquette would dictate either a buck or two at teh start and the same at the end... Generally I just throw a $5 at the end. Further more... nothing is more annoying than having some guy "shoo" you away when you are trying to do your job... tip, dont tip, whatever, just let me do my damn job. ( I worked at a resort course in Orlando for a while )

If you want to try to explain it away, go right ahead... I guess it helps you feel better about it? Whether its $75, $100, $130 or $200... if someone is there hustling their ass off so you dont have to touch your bag and you are set to go when its your time... and you cant afford (or are just simply to damn cheap) to toss them a couple bucks... I mean come on, you cant possibly feel good about that... can you?

If you are too cheap to tip at a resort course that cost circa $100, then you shouldnt be playing the course... anywhere else (ie home course) should be based on how much you use what they offer and if you get along with the guys and they are willing to help you when you need it.

Exactly Wrist hinge will play a role as well... lots of wrist hinge means high ball flight.

I disagree... If he isnt "good enough" to hit a 3-wood then why does he carry a driver? Right? I played all of my high school golf without a driver, carded at least one round under par that I can remember and went somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-2 for my career. I would add a 3 and 5 wood and take out the driver. Quickest way to add strokes to a card... Poor drives.

That is SO true... I cant believe that any 10, 20 + handicap would even consider carrying a long iron (2 iron especially!) rather than a hybrid. I carry a 22* and 25* hybrid for 220 and 205 respectively... better ball flight, more spin, better workability, and i can fill my distance gaps perfectly... I cant imagine not hitting what works best. Why make the game harder than it is?

Considering Tiger's knee issues and the fact that his swing relies so heavily on athleticism, will he still be around at 50+? I wonder....

Here in orlando, IMO the only way to be able to play golf often is to either be super rich, or work in the industry. Golf is way too expensive here to be an avid player and have to pay full price. There are a few reasonable clubs in the area, Orange Tree Golf Club is one of them, I believe initiation is around $4k, $250 per month dues and $120 per quarter F&B; requirement... cart fee per 18 is an additional $18. That is about the best deal around for a really serious player. Otherwise, take a course like MetroWest... its about $60 per round (but it does got down for twilight) plus range balls. I try to play or practice 5+ days per week, so having to pay full price just isnt feasible for me. If I didnt get discounted or free golf, I wouldnt be playing.

There should be an option for "I *should* always be playing through... but no one ever lets me" lol Down here it seems almost impossible to get a group to allow you to play through... case in point, I was playing as a 4some at ChampionsGate just a few weeks ago, the 2SOME in front of us was playing slower than we were! Not really a huge deal there, the story is the 2some behind us... Behind us there were 3, 2somes in a row... on the 17th tee (short par 3), 2 of the 2somes pulled up at the exact same time (we had waited for the 2some in front of us, so the 2some behind was on a tee for a bit, the 2some behind them pulled up with them while they were waiting).... the 2some that pulled up first PLAYED OUT ALONE! lol so these other guys were waiting on the tee with them at the same time, and they didnt let them finish out together, they made them wait on the tee! I couldnt believe it.

I know several guys that can hit it that far and play off 10+... the issue is they only hit one of those (out of 14 or so) in the fairway... the others that end up in the fairway are usually mishit and barely scrap by around 230-240 or so

Believe it or not I think I actually played that course in college... It actually came up in conversation the other day as a recollection of the worst place I'd ever been. Doesnt it have some absurdly long Par 6... like 700 yards?

KZG is good stuff IMO havent dont too much with the other, but KZG gets great reviews from club fitters.

I generally agree with that... even if you dont get the benefit why not play the best right? However, lets me honest, do you think Mr Golf Digest guy is gonna say "hey folks if you arent very good dont waste your money with one of our biggest advertisers" lol If you arent flush with cash, they wont make any difference... and I can promise you, a Pro V1 wont stop any faster than a top flite in your situation. Dont get "sandbagged" by the media and by hype. In the end play whatever you want, but dont be fooled by the supposed benefits.

In my high school matches we each got 3 Top Flites... if you wanted anything else, you had to get your own...

I replaced added two hybrids to my bag, a 22* (or is it 21... ill have to go check lol) and 25*. I hit them much better than a 2, 3 or 4 iron and they fit much better into my set. They fill my distance gaps perfectly and keep my ball flight consistent, if not a touch higher than I'd like... but I rather have to knock it down then not be able to get it to spin and stop when I need to.