stogiesnbogies

So the R&A; says 208 and Trackman says 214.......actually that's less than one club's difference there .....your point being, I assume, that yet another reputable source (R&A;) chimes in with data supporting "Tee It Forward"? So we now have all credible sources: PGA, USGA, R&A; and Trackman saying essentially the same thing ! In any case, the average male adult amateur still does not warrant a course length much beyond 6,000 yards as the PGA/USGA clearly state. "tis but a difference without a distinction, eh? :) What's actually happening here , as Camilli points out in his book, is a paradigm shift in golf culture. With the increase in courses moving to color coded tee boxes there will be less stigma about what were so long referred to as "Senior "Tees, etc.. This along with the changing demographic of golfers as more young people, women and minorities take up the game and are introduced early on to the sanity that is "Tee It Forward", much of this testosterone driven rubbish will indeed subside and folks will naturally play more appropriate length courses moving forward.....'tis the very nature of change itself. Camilli demonstrates the life cycle of new ideas and change in general by presenting the following : 1. Change is introduced to a culture 2.The Change is met with fierce resistance. (Some of which is present in this thread, for example) 3. The Change is reluctantly accepted and/or accommodated.(Again, some of which is present in this thread) 4.The Change becomes the new "normal". (This may well become evident when this topic is no longer a thread at all! LOL) Cheers.

While the hard data does indeed allow for some exceptions, the problem, as Camilli's book points out , is alas, that far too many "Tom, Dick and Harry's" consider themselves exceptions . LOL Were there as many "exceptions" as those who consider themselves such, there wouldn't be the "rule" or "mean" now would there, eh? Again, gents, the numbers don't lie and Camilli's book cites a world-wide trackman study of over 10,000 golfers of all abilities which finds that the AVERAGE male amateur hits a drive 214 yards . The book's chapter is aptly titled: "Tee It Forward vs. Testosterone" and much of this thread certainly supports that view. :) Cheers.

Thank you, ccotenj.....what you post here is pretty much what Dan Camilli's book with it's PGA/USGA and Trackman rock solid data indicate, - the numbers don't lie, gentlemen and anyone attempting to compose some alibi or excuse for denying them is not in reality ......"kinda like you deciding to play Lebron James one on one" -and expecting to do well, no less! LOL Most courses are now renaming their tee boxes based on a color code thus eliminating much of the stigma of some who fret about hitting from "Senior" tees and the like and over time those old labels will fade into the past - as already we see many more golfers checking the USGA/PGA "Tee It Forward" Distance Chart in order to play the most appropriate course length. Please remember that the data leave little doubt that few amateurs should ever be playing a course much longer than approx. 6,000 yards.....please let that fact seep into your thinking process here and then apply it directly to your actual distances....not imagined ones, lads! But methinks it's still more accurately depicted in Camilli's book as you attempting to hit home runs in a major league dimensioned ball park..... alas, 'tis little more than some poor misguided blokes thinking with the wrong head........topping off their testosterone! :) Cheers.

Please do remember that not everyone plays under the same conditions in any tournament as the morning tee times often have advantage over PM tee times....in any event, methinks it's poor form for DJ to mouth off after 3 putting a 12 footer- sour grapes if you will -I doubt he'd said a word had he won, eh? LOL......if you recall Rory made a serious charge mid Sunday but then also missed putts and fell back yet again.....he didn't blame the greens, the golf gods or his putter....."We all have to putt on them" were his wise words....

Methinks, 'tis rather bush league and whiney to blame the greens.....as Rory aptly pointed out - "They all had to putt on them." Time for DJ to put his big boy pants on and admit that he three putted from 12 feet .....no one else is to blame.

So very true, indeed ! Dan Camilli devotes an entire chapter to this issue entitled : "Tee It Forward vs. Testosterone" in his book called "Tee Ceremony: A Cosmic Duffer's Companion to the Ancient Game of Golf". He points out that we "wouldn't expect Little League baseball players to hit home runs in a ball park with major league dimensions so neither should amateur golfers be expected to make par on Tour Professional length courses." Camilli then supports his position with data from the PGA which says "The 6.700 yard course that many amateur golfers play today is proportionately equivalent to a PGA Tour player competing on a course measuring 8,100 yards- That's 700 yards or more LONGER than a typical PGA Tour layout." He also cites Trackman research from over 10.000 golfers of all abilities world-wide, which says that the average male amateur drives the ball an average of 214 yards. That being said, Camilli then deduces that very few amateurs should be playing a layout longer than approximately 6,000 yards! It's really a simple matter of math over ego. LOL He makes a most convincing, data-driven case for Tee It Forward and points out the idiocy of those who reject the facts out of hand - or more correctly out of EGO ! Camilli sums it all up with a quote from Einstein " Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity , and I'm not sure about the universe." LOL The book is a very funny and informative take on the game - check it out at Amazon.

FYI: The topic of "Tee It Forward" is humorously discussed- complete with cartoons, in a new book by Dan Camilli entitled Tee Ceremony: A Cosmic Duffer's Companion to The Ancient Game of Golf . The book is a hilarious take on many aspects of the game including "Tee It Forward", Driving Distance Liars, Cigars , golf partners, etc. You can have a "Look Inside" the book at Amazon. A fun read ! FYI: I got my father and father-in-law a copy for Father's Day.

Good News! Amazon.com has recently added a "Look Inside" feature to Camilli's Tee Ceremony book so you can read a sample of it and check out some of his cartoons in the book as well. Alas, I fear that my review has not done the book justice but now you can check it out for yourself. Simply go to: http://www.amazon.com/Tee-Ceremony-Duffers-Companion-Ancient/dp/1512242659/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid;=1432930780&sr;=8-1&keywords;=camilli and click on the "Look Inside" icon located above the book picture.

I just finished reading "Tee Ceremony; A Cosmic Duffer's Companion to The Ancient Game of Golf " and loved it! Golf can definitely use more humor, IMO. This one was a birthday gift from my daughter. Here's my review of it. Golf Book Review by stogiesnbogies Tee Ceremony : A Cosmic Duffer’s Companion to The Ancient Game of Golf Sacred Ruminations and Profane Observations about Golf and Life By Dan Camilli Available at Amazon and BarnesandNoble.com http://www.amazon.com/Tee-Ceremony-Duffers-Companion-Ancient/dp/1512242659/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid;=1432770124&sr;=8-1&keywords;=camilli http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tee-ceremony-dan-camilli/1122002028?ean=9781512242652 This is DEFINITELY not an instructional book and the author says so in his introduction. It is a humorous yet informative journey into the philosophical and mystical aspects of golf. Camilli , a long time philosophy instructor with a Harvard background, calls himself a “Cosmic Duffer” and explains that he views golf as a kind of moving meditation – “a form of Tai Chi with clubs” and he seeks to use golf as a tool for personal growth and development. He says that “The Cosmic Duffer knows that golf offers a transformative experience. It’s an exquisitely simple yet complex game- an 18 hole drama- complete with plot and subplots. Yet the hero and the villain are always the same person- YOU. “ The book is set up like a round of golf with 18 Holes (chapters) as well as a 19th hole stop with some “Final Swing Thoughts”. It is modeled after the Tao Te Ching’s 81 Chapters designed to provoke thought and reflection in the reader. The chapters are short and free ranging; addressing “Sacred and Profane” topics such as golf partners, cigars (He's Pro cigars and Pipes!) , driving distance liars and putting to name but a few. He does this with a sense of humor ( i.e. - “Driving distance is golf’s version of penis size as virtually everybody lies about how long they are.” ) The book also includes a series of golf cartoons and quotes by philosophers and writers at the start of each chapter that help to further lighten up the more profound topics such as Aristotle’s “Three Types of Friendship” which will have you examining your playing partners anew. If you’ve ever wondered what Plato, Aristotle, Buddha and the Bhagavad Gita have to do with golf – or even if you haven’t- you might want to check this one out. stogiesnbogies

Well, surf, as the OP of this thread I know that I speak for all posters when I say "You're Welcome ! " As for your getting down to 90 and then getting worse, it's been my experience that this is not so unusual as progress in this game is a series of peaks and valleys. Alas, you must slog on and persevere through the "slumps" no matter how discouraging and freakin' endless they may be and you will indeed come out the other side a better player. When in those deep dark valleys, I find it useful to re-examine fundamentals like ball position, grip, stance, etc. as it is very easy to get lazy regarding these critical things and not notice misalignment and the like. Play well and enjoy the baseball grip! Cheers.

I've played a number of clone models and based on my experience with them I would recommend Pinemeadow golf as consistently best quality and performance. In fact I still play Pinemeadow brand fairway woods as they are easy to hit and far less expensive than most OEM brands. You might want to check out their website. Pinemeadowgolf.com Good luck .

The USGA says that the average golfer in its system carries about a 15.0 handicap. This translates into an average score of about 90, close to that of a bogey golfer. But "Golf Digest" notes that most golfers don't participate in the USGA system. And because most golfers without handicaps are occasional players who generally shoot higher than 100, the official USGA average score is artificially low. The good news here is that, for most of us who shoot in the 80's regularly, we would be considered "good" players -as in better than average. The bad news here is , you guessed it......the game is even more difficult than you may have thought! LOL USGA Chart: The following chart shows how your Handicap Index stacks up against the rest of the country: Handicap Index Percent of Total Cumulative +1.0 or better +0.92% +0.92% +0.9 to 0.0 0.68% 1.60% 0.1 to 1.0 0.95% 2.55% 1.1 to 1.9 1.26% 3.81% 2.0 to 2.9 1.62% 5.43% 3.0 to 3.9 2.07% 7.51% 4.0 to 4.9 2.60% 10.11% 5.0 to 5.9 3.20% 13.30% 6.0 to 6.9 3.77% 17.07% 7.0 to 7.9 4.35% 21.42% 8.0 to 8.9 4.76% 26.18% 9.0 to 9.9 5.13% 31.31% 10.0 to 10.9 5.43% 36.74% 11.0 to 11.9 5.66% 42.40% 12.0 to 12.9 5.72% 48.12% 13.0 to 13.9 5.69% 53.82% 14.0 to 14.9 5.47% 59.28% 15.0 to 15.9 5.10% 64.38% 16.0 to 16.9 4.69% 69.07% 17.0 to 17.9 4.33% 73.40% 18.0 to 18.9 3.78% 77.17% 19.0 to 19.9 3.34% 80.51% 20.0 to 20.9 2.96% 83.47% 21.0 to 21.9 2.62% 86.10% 22.0 to 22.9 2.30% 88.40% 23.0 to 23.9 1.98% 90.38% 24.0 to 24.9 1.68% 92.06% 25.0 to 25.9 1.43% 93.50% 26.0 to 26.9 1.19% 94.69% 27.0 to 27.9 1.00% 95.69% 28.0 to 28.9 0.82% 96.52% 29.0 to 29.9 0.68% 97.19% 30.0 to 30.9 0.54% 97.74% 31.0 to 31.9 0.45% 98.19% 32.0 to 32.9 0.36% 98.55% 33.0 to 33.9 0.29% 98.84% 34.0 to 34.9 0.24% 99.08% 35.0 to 36.4 0.92% 100.00%

FYI: I know several graduates of the Golf Academy and they do not speak well of it. They are now older college students attempting to acquire a "serviceable" education. While one, a Navy Vet, does have a job as a Golf Club teaching pro, he says that generally, the PGA certified programs lead to better career prospects and he was left with some 30 thousand dollars of debt! He also says that he would definitely not do it again and feels that he essentially wasted precious GI Bill Education money. I am only relating what I have been told by those who have attended .....the post regarding the PGA certified programs with its formality and apparent religiosity sounds "creepy" indeed. You might also do well to remember that the golf business in general, is in steep decline these days. Most notable evidence to this effect is the recent layoff of over 500 PGA certified pros at Dick's Sporting Goods stores, nation-wide. Bottom line: a casual perusal of the economic landscape provides ample evidence that the middle class is a rapidly vanishing species- having been outsourced for several decades now. These are/ were the people who had both the time and money to pursue golf. Golf's decline is but a kind of "canary in the coal mine" indicator of the loss of good paying, middle class jobs nation wide. Those jobs are highly unlikely to ever return. That said I would suggest that you think twice and three times before investing so much time and money into a career in golf. At the very least I would urge due diligence and suggest that you speak with graduates of ALL these programs in order to acquire first hand knowledge of their experiences and their career paths. You should also speak extensively with club pros and other golf course management employees and learn as much as possible about their jobs and career prospects, etc. This will not only provide a more comprehensive understanding of the field but also help you to develop a valuable professional network. Best wishes in your career search.....may you find the path that brings you the most happiness. :)

The US Ryder Cup situation appears to be a train wreck from the point of both organization and frankly, at the moment, talent. The organization appears to be in a state of disarray and players feel free to criticize captains, both past and mostly present as well as the organization itself. As for the talent side of the ledger; frankly the Euros have a far more talented, and perhaps most importantly MOTIVATED cadre ...they are vastly more successful at working as a TEAM and everyone takes the Ryder Cup extremely seriously and considers it the biggest moment of the golf season. In sharp contrast, the US squad doesn't even fly to Scotland as a team as Mickelson takes his private jet......that alone says much about the "unity" and chemistry of the American squad....Roseforte also revealed that at past Ryder Cups, Lefty practiced at other nearby courses and even introduced new clubs to his bag during the Ryder Cup Tournament!! Need more be said?! How about the Ryder Cup records of both Tiger and Phil being truly "Meh!" and certainly not a true reflection of the talent they bring to the first tee every week that they play on behalf of THEMSELVES..... In addition to harboring more than a few self entitled prima donnas, the American golf scene is presently transitioning from the Tiger and Phil Era to an as yet undetermined talent landscape; players like Speith, Fowler, Walker, Reed and more than a few others are extremely talented but still vying for that next level of domination-still establishing themselves, if you will..........meanwhile the Euros have produced the next "Tiger" as we enter the "Rory Era" and he has a supporting cast of top notch talent surrounding him on the Euro squad. Guys like GMac, Rose, etc.. Bottom line: Freddie seems wise enough to realize that there is damn little upside to his taking the role of Ryder Cup Captain.....and a very good chance that he could well become the next target of the venom publically cast by the spoiled self centered crybabies on the US PGA Tour at Tom Watson for his efforts to bring the cup back to the USA.... While I, like so many here, am a fan of Freddie and cheer for him on the Champions Tour, we must also admit that his personality and likability were more than minor factors in his being inducted into the Golf Hall of Fame.....his actual record, sadly impaired by chronic back problems, is at best, marginal; having won only but a single major in his career. Indeed, Freddie was THE reason that the World Gold Hall of Fame changed and tightened up it's admissions criteria -now requiring at least TWO majors, etc.....we could call that the "Freddie Rule".........that said, Freddie understands that his likability is indeed a major piece of his "social capital" and that he would have much to lose and very little to gain by accepting a Ryder Cup Captaincy ....he already has multiple President's Cup Captain's successes. ( a far safer bet indeed!).... That said, I really don't know what the answer is to what troubles the US Ryder Cup squad....perhaps wait until younger more hungry players like Reed, Speith etc. come of age? The culture definitely needs changing -and that will be a very heavy lift for ANY captain.....so one can hardly blame Freddie for passing on the offer....

As others are already saying; "to each his own" and if you feel comfortable with this set up, and it's producing results-so be it. However, you do realize that ALL of these wedges can be opened and closed providing you with a wide range of options? Perhaps you might consider fooling around with that concept on the practice range/green and seeing if you can feel comfortable hitting multiple shots with a few wedges simply by opening / closing , changing ball position, etc....Personally, I think you are vastly underestimating the versatility of these wedges. but hey that's my take -and it's your bag, right? ....anyway, good luck with your present set-up - let the scorecard determine your success-and it has no video :) Cheers

If you have a slower swing speed I think you'd really like the new Callaway Super Soft...excellent all around performer ; also might try Wilson Staff 50 Elite and/or Wilson Staff Duo. Please see my review of the Callaway Super Soft on the DB for more info....Good Luck!

Thanks golfingdad. Hope that my review might help some people make a somewhat more informed decision as they set out to the golf shop to stock up on golf balls for the new season. I recommend that if one hasn't tried these various balls perhaps try to buy a sleeve of each and play them against each other in order to determine which best fits your game: Callaway Super Soft (38 Compression), Wilson Staff Fifty Elite(50 compression) , Wilson Staff Duo( 40 compression) and Titleist DT So/Lo (FYI: So/Lo has the highest compression at 80 but its an excellent ball tee to green -again in the 20 dollar per dozen range.) cheers.

Please read my review posted here of the Callaway Super Soft.....having played the So/Lo for some years as my go-to ball, I now give the nod to Callaway Super Soft-especially for those of us, like myself, with slower swing speeds. Here's the link to my review here on TST website: http://thesandtrap.com/products/callaway-super-soft-golf-ball cheers. GolfingDad, You say: " You kinda gotta try it out and see how it feels, ya know??" I agree entirely....but garnering a consensus -especially from fellow golfers with similar swing speeds can be informative and lead to more discerning purchases....as the author of the Super Soft Review I am comparing my experience with that of the So/Lo, as well as Wilson Duo and Fifty Elite and found that the Cally performs best all around.....as they say results may vary ...but if you search reviews of the Super soft across the internet you will, indeed be hard pressed to find a negative word -at least from those whose swing speed actually fits this ball.....info worth knowing as you begin stocking up on balls for the coming season....cheers

FYI: iacas: I have now posted my review in the review section as you requested. cheers.

~~Callaway Super Soft Golf Ball Review by Stogiesnbogies FYI: I am a senior player with an 85-90 Max swing speed; a 15-17 handicap who plays senior flex shafted clubs. I hit my average drives between 180-200 yards and max out under ideal conditions with a very rare 220 yard "bomb". Callaway has produced the lowest compression ball on the market here with a 38 rating. In contrast the Wilson Staff Duo, it's nearest competitor has a 43 compression; the Wilson Staff Fifty Elite at 50, while the Titleist DT So/Lo checks in at 72. (FYI: All slower swing players; perhaps the reason that the Pro V1X does nothing for you or me has something to do with its 102 compression rating!) In addition to it's softest compression which enhances direction and distance (as well as feel off the club) Callaway has produced a soft, responsive cover. The soft core and soft cover combine with HEX aerodynamics to produce a golf ball that reduces spin and adds distance. I absolutely love this ball as it combines the best aspects of both the Wilson Staff Duo and the Wilson Staff Fifty Elite without any of their liabilities. For example the Callaway Super Soft has great distance like the duo but much better feel off the putter. I find the super soft to be straighter and consequently a tad longer than the Fifty Elite as well. It performs great around the greens with approach shots that sit and pitches and chips that run true. It feels and sounds great off of all club faces. It has proven to be quite durable as well as I played 2 full rounds with one ball and it still looks fine; no scuffs, scratches or cuts. Callaway definitely has a winner here for a large piece of the golfing market- namely seniors, most women and others with slower swing speeds. It is available in white or yellow (I tested white) and is well priced at 18 -20 dollars per dozen much like its market competitors, the Wilson Staff Duo and Titleist DT So/Lo. All good balls but I'm bagging the Callaway Super Softs Now!!

Must have been great to see Two Gloves Gainey swing up close!! Love effective "home made" swings like Gainey and Bubba... Absolutely nothing wrong with changing your grip for different shots if that works for you....I've done it in the process of experimenting with the "Baseball style" grip....However mine is not a traditional thumb wrap around baseball grip but more of a "golf style" ten finger grip with both thumbs on top and the butt end hand thumb under the right hand thumb pad....if that makes sense! Since moving to this grip I have also stopped wearing a glove (a la Fred Couples!) as I like the more natural feel of the club in my hand. I have virtually eliminated chunks and tops , making solid contact with little or none of my previous fades and slices....in short, methinks I've found my go-to grip at last. I've only been playing for six years and I'm a senior golfer but as I reflect on my introduction (6 or 8 lessons-beginner series) to the game with a club PGA Teaching Pro I recall that he immediately made us all use the interlock ...which I think is a big mistake considering my experience with it ....and alas, yet another reason I wince when Golf Channel's Michael Breed closes each show by urging viewers to "see a PGA Teaching Pro" ! LOL And in contrast to the poster who cites Moe Norman keeping the club in his palms, I find best results are when keeping club in fingers......bottom line : RESULTS are what matters -and we all need to feel free to experiment in order to find our own unique swing that is most effective for us as individuals.... Cheers.

I love that 37 degree Cleveland Niblick it pitches up to 100 yards on the pin and chips roll out like putts... but I'll be damned if I can get anything consistent out of the 56.....it has a 14 bounce and as you know it is configured differently than the other Cleveland Niblicks as it doesn't have an alignment marker .....How do you hit it successfully out of sand- do you use the traditional Niblick putting swing or do you play an "explosion or splash" shot???

Glad to see yet another Cleveland Niblick fan on the board!! Which loft Niblick are you playing? I own all 4 lofts -The 37 Degree is no longer manufactured but available at ebay and the like....the 42, 49 and 56. Only one I don't like is the fickle 56...as I prefer my regular sand wedge for those shots. As you are probably well aware, The Niblick is not just a chipper but a hybrid scoring wedge -extremely versatile from 100 yards in -it can accurately pitch, chip, approach and rescue just as Cleveland Golf states...the Hacker's Paradise reviewed all of them and tested them all with both high and low handicaps and found them to be more accurate in ALL instances...just wonderful clubs for lowing scores....this past year, I have dropped my handicap from 18 to 15 in good part due to Cleveland Niblicks.... As for those who criticize the club, I am not a PGA Tour Player nor is likely anyone else on this board....I don't play low lofted drivers, stiff shafted blade irons or have the time nor inclination to spend 5 to 8 hours 5 plus days per week practicing wedge chipping......fact is no recreational player does....the Cleveland Niblicks instill confidence, lower scores and make the game more fun....which is precisely the reason we amateurs play!! Cheers.

Well, Rory already has more majors than Westwood-who I also like.....but you are talking about a very young, extremely talented kid with something akin to 20+ years of golf career ahead of him....this is also the kid who Tiger personally coronated as essentially the guy who would ultimately replace him as golf's best...that is what I would call a very informed opinion! Rory is already showing strong signs that his personal and professional life are stabilizing and he is once again topping the leaderboards....no reason to believe that this will change anytime soon. there are many other golfers, IMO, who are more likely to be "over rated" including Dustin Johnson , for example....everybody oooohs and ahhhs about his distance but he is not a complete player as he lacks a reliable short game and regularly displays questionable course management -especially at crunch time on Sundays......just an example amongst many.... Cheers.

"~~ You have not been around for awhile, but came back to pick a fight??? Bored?? FYI: This is my original thread....I'm checking back after being away for a while as I mentioned, and commenting on comments.....as is appropriate. But you're visiting a thread that you neither originally started nor contributed to in order to interject yourself into a dispute that is absolutely none of your concern......bored? and rude as well.