connor35

Can you tell us the par, course rating or slope? For example, on a par 72, a 13 handicap is shooting -6. http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html This shows that there is a 1:323 chance of that happening for any particular golfer, those are far from long odds. Assuming there are a bunch of golfers in the event the odds that anyone beats their handicap by 6 strokes or more become much shorter. For example, if you have 50 13-handicaps, the probability that at least one shots 79 or better is 14% [1- (322/323)^50 = 0.14]. Most people don't understand that odds for an individual doing something rare vs. the odds of someone (anyone) doing it are quite different. It's rare that a particular number is drawn in the pick 6 lotto. But someone beats those odds and wins the lotto every few weeks. [But you still shouldn't play the lottery]. So just because you're a 13 and haven't shot 79 doesn't mean it's impossible when someone else does.

I have a PhD in statistics (seriously). And it's quite possible. First, 13 is a snapshot of the last 20 rounds. If the guy is trending better, it's quite reasonable -- his handicap dropping rapidly is proof of that. I'm not saying this particular is not a sandbagger. I am saying that 79 is possible. I'm a 14 handicap. I shot a back nine 39 last Thursday. Am I a sandbagger (I shot 46 on the front)? Exactly. It's rare, but is happens. Across the whole country, there are thousands of 13s. A few every summer will put up rounds of 79.

That's too bad, sorry to hear it. I really enjoy friendly competition among a decent sized group, but I understand there is nothing you can do. And it's a shame too. Sandbagging is like beating up a kid and taking his candy. I'm just not sure how anyone can feel good about themselves for doing it. Especially since your such a fine player, is there a group to get a scratch game with?

I think this says something about the club -- and I definitely don't mean any disrespect. But it sounds like the foxes are running the henhouse. At my place we have a men's golf group and while we all have GHIN handicaps, we have a "within group" handicap. Here only scores in Men's group play count for handicap. And since you're always in foursomes with other men's group members (and we play by ALL rules) any person's score is going to be legitimate. No outside rounds (either at other courses or home course play outside the men's group) is allowed for the our men's group play handicap. But all scores within men's group competition counts. Since our group plays every Saturday and Sunday (one needn't play every day of course) everyone tends to have a legitimate handicap. Perhaps you could suggest such a system at your club. This also discourages anyone within our group from having a sandbagging handicap for outside group play, because if his GHIN were radically different from the men's group handicap, it would be evident and he might be called out.

79 off a 13 is totally doable. You can never really tell a sandbagger from one single round anyway. Some guys are highly variable, especially guys with long drivers that can spray. On days they keep their drives in the fairway maybe they'll score 79-80. On a bad day when they're spraying the ball, maybe they shot 95-100. I know, I'm such a player.

Your original statement implies that you believe an ordinary swing and a miss (where nothing moves) would not count as a stroke. But it does. Every time. If you intend to hit the ball and swing, it's a stroke.

I've done 54 in a day twice. The first was in San Diego at The Auld Course, played it 3 times. The second was in Alabama. Played the Lake and the Links at Grand National, then drove 1.5 hours and played the Judge in Prattville. I've also played a pseudo-54: Lake and Links at Grand National (both championship courses) followed by 18 holes on their par-3 course. I don't even remember being too tired either time. I almost always walk, but I rode all three rounds those two days.

Check out the Sun Mountain Mini. http://www.sunmountain.com/default.p...3182_3209_3276 It's 2.6 pounds, has a few pockets. I carry it 36 holes every weekend. I carry 12 clubs so it'll work fine for your 6-8. It's amazingly light even with clubs in it.

My handicap right now is 12.5. I make a ton of pars, some birdies. But I'm a 12.5 because I tend to have a few blow up holes usually due to leaky drives. For example last week I shot 87 with 2 birdies, 8 pars, 3 bogeys. So I was +1 over 13 of the 18 holes. But on the other five I was quad, quad, double, double, double. So I was +15 on the day, but +14 on just 5 holes. That's why I can't seem to get to single digits, even trying to play smarter, I just have blow up holes. Distance wise I probably drive 250 or so. I play my 7-iron at 165.

Just walk. They'll learn quick enough that walking doesn't slow you down. In fact I bet you get from green to next tee faster than them. Dean Knuth, the man who invented the slope rating for the USGA also did a detailed analysis of pace of play walking vs riding. He found no difference when carts were allowed to go anyway and that walking was substantially faster when it was cart paths only. You can find the study with a google search.

I read more about golf design and architecture than any other golf topic. By far, IMO, the best book on design and architecture is Tom Doak's Anatomy of a Golf Course http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Golf-C.../dp/1580800718 Pete Dye once said something like 90% of golf course architecture is making drainage look aesthetically pleasing. Doak's book covers the different schools of design (Penal vs. Strategic vs. Heroic), routing, psychology, as well as construction of greens, tees, fairways, etc. The book gives plenty of history as well. I guarantee if you read it, you'll think of many things in a whole new light.

My uncle would always say "Whipped cream on sh** " if he holed a long putt or chipped after messing up a hole, e.g. holing a long putt for an 8. When a friend leaves a putt way short: "Take off your panties and putt it." After I make a 2 on a par-3, I've been known to put my tee in the ground, back off, look at my playing partners, and I'm "Oh I'm sorry, did anyway make a 1?"

I know. And I did repair it. But you can rarely repair it in such a way that you're not in a minor indentation.

I can't imagine that everyone, at some point, hasn't failed to walk all the way back to the tee when they found a ball OB. Furthermore, as Stewart Cink's recent DQ illustrates, even the pros don't know all the esoteric rules. So I'm sure we've all "cheated" (i.e. broken the rules) numerous times and not even known it. That said, when I found my ball in a divot today, I hit it. And when an approach shot landed in an old ball mark on the green, after I marked and cleaned my ball, I putt my ball back in the old pitch mark.

I have no idea, but other tour players think he is. And that's why they call him FIGJAM.

I always use a Maryland (my home state) state quarter, tails up. The capital building is on the coin, so I aim the apex of the capital towards the hole.

To me it doesn't matter what the law states. If a poorly played shot of mine caused damage (to a property of an individual) I would pay.

I've had a caddy at Oakmont. A more approachable club is Edgewood off 376 East of the city. Great Donald Ross course. Most caddies I've seen there are local kids.

I've been one under for a 9 (on a Arthur Hills course), but I've never broken 80 for a round!

Craw? Do you use Equitable Stroke Control when figuring your handicap? For instance as a 14 handicap, I can't take more than a 7 on any one hole. So when I have a blow up hole (or three) as you state, it's doesn't affect my handicap too badly. For example I shot 98 Saturday in rough conditions but only used a 94 for my handicap because the 8 changes to a 7 and my 10 (ouch!) changes to a 7. Here's your max per hole as a function of the course handicap (use your index * slope / 113 = the course handicap). Equitable Stroke Control Chart Course HandicapMaximum Score 0-9Double Bogey 10-197 20-298 30-399 40 or more10

Well said. But also as I've posted here before, if you play in a stroke play event with lots of golfers, someone is going to go low and this is legit. For example, someone might win the lottery. You can't go "He didn't really win the lottery because there is a 1 in 50 million chance of winning the lottery. So obviously he cheated." That's what people who look at the popeofslope chart are erroneously concluding. Rather millions play the lottery, so the odds of someone winning are much higher than 1 in 50 million. The same for a stroke play event with 50+ golfers. The probability of a particular player going low is a long shot. The probability of someone going low isn't as nearly as improbable. Are there sandbaggers? Sure. But every winner isn't a sandbagger. But most losers who don't understand variability tend to think the winners are sandbaggers. If there wasn't natural variation we wouldn't actually need to go out and play, would we? I'm a highly variable golfer (last 4 rounds were 86, 103, 94, 97). If that 86 came in a tournament I'd probably be labelled a sandbagger when it fact the average guy doesn't understand natural variability.

My new home course: www.golfatnorthshore.com

I went back and read your post. Is it improbable in match play for that to occur. In the one-round stroke play events, its most often a higher handicap that wins. I didn't read your original post carefully enough the first time through.

I'm a believer in the "The pin never helped a good shot" theory. That said, I hit plenty of bad shots so I'll only leave the pin in when I think a good shot is improbable (e.g., tough lie to a downhill pin).

Thank you Spoon. The company of men like you is why I play golf. The "let them try to recover from you" line made me think of scratching someone's car in a parking lot. Would this lawyer just drive off, not leaving a windshield note, and let the car's owner to try and recover the damages from him?" In addition to being plain wrong, I would actually think this could violate his Bar oath.