Gboroman

Thanks. It's hard to tell on TV and I always thought it seemed strange how #12 tee looks like it is just placed in a field of grass rather than elevated and set off like on most courses you see.

I've never had the fortune to attend Augusta National. Watching on TV, though, I was wondering why there is so much manicured grass between the tee and pond/green on #12? Seem like a huge waste. Anybody know?

Article has potential, but the writing style is way superfluous.

Thanks, newtogolf. You're right, I did miss that. That crosses a line. Whatever side of this argument you fall, I'm learning more and more that people will believe what they want to believe no matter what is said, done or displayed. I guess that's called conviction. Funny, that word is also the same word used when someone is found guilty of something.

I'm sure you are a very fine and intelligent person, but you can't seem to grasp the difference between proof and suspicion. I'm not going to re-list the items that are contained in this thread and have been published in medical documents that can lead one to be suspicious of PED use only to have you respond line-by-line with possible reasons why they might not apply to Tiger or anyone else for that matter. I'm tired of that game. And, I'm not going to ask you to prove a negative. As you know, facts and opinions are different. You can mix the two, but they aren't the same. All I'm going to say is stop trying to interpret an opinion as fact. Just stop. It makes you look less intelligent than you probably are. 99% of the people who think Tiger Woods may, MAY, MAY have taken PED's hate him? LOL. I must be in the 1%, then. I think your point might be valid, though. I can believe there is a large % of people who believe that Tiger took PEDs who want to see him fail. It might have to do with racism. It might have to do with the enjoyment of watching the mighty fall. It might be that some people just don't like his personality or he treated them rudely by not signing an autograph between holes. Maybe they don't want to see Jack's record fall. Who knows? Whatever the reason, NO ONE can deny Tiger has been great for his sport and has been a source of excitement and interest during his career. So was Dale Earnhardt, but not everybody loved him, either. By the way, I also believe those same people who hate Tiger and want to see him fail don't care if the cause is PED's, infidelity, injury, swing changes or whatever the reason.

Agreed. There are plenty of other things listed in this thread that would lead one to be suspicious. If there was hard proof that is public knowledge, then Tiger would already be banned. So, it is just plain stupid to ask, "Where's your proof?" OF COURSE, there is no proof that is available to the public.

LOL. What's idiotic is believing he absolutely did not take banned substances just because there is no "court-worthy" evidence. By the way, there are many things listed in this thread that could make one suspect. I'm not going to re-list them.

Slow-play Joke Teller Guy. This guy has already caused you to fall 2 holes behind, but interrupts his pre-shot routine on the tee box for 5 minutes to tell his unfunny joke. Meanwhile, you are uncomfortably watching the group finish up on the green behind you.

Haha. Reminds of the guy I play with. He doesn't have all those medical conditions during the same round, but he always shows up with a different medical condition every round. Usually, it's some kind of muscle strain in a different part of his body he got lifting weights or working in the house/yard that week. Last week, it was poison oak on his leg. Other times, its some kind of digestive problem. He's not that old, but he has to stretch before every shot because his neck/shoulder/back/whatever is sooooo tight.

If divorce was inevitable, I'm just glad they did it before they had children. Fortunately for the single men on this board, I'm married. Oh, and I'm broke, too.

It's uncomfortably awkward when the cart girl flirts with me. I just take off my glove and show my wedding ring like a crucifix to a vampire. I'm so incredibly good looking, though, I can't blame them. Leave me alone, I'm trying to play some golf here. I don't have time for these distractions. Oh, and wake me up from my fantasy...

Tiger Woods just announced he is not playing next week's Arnold Palmer. We all know what THAT means! Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Correct! Gold star! However, inference can also be defined as the non-logical, but rational means, through observation of patterns of facts, to indirectly see new meanings and contexts for understanding. Of particular use to this application of inference are anomalies and symbols. Inference, in this sense, does not draw conclusions but opens new paths for inquiry . Yes, I copied that definition. No, I'm not. You are using what's called Cognitive Bias.

Just an observation. Seems like you observed the same thing. Do you even know what inference means? Most on here don't.

You're right about Jack being built like a linebacker when he came into pro golf. I agree. But, Tiger was built like a pine needle when he came into pro golf.

First of all, I don't hate Tiger Woods. I enjoy watching him compete and I think he has been great for the game of golf and the touring pros' professions. I hope he can come back and beat Jack's record. But, there are many on here who have their blinders on, their head in the sand and just don't want to even consider the possibility that Tiger used some form of PED. It is telling that you say "0-for-however many things you want to come up with." How about if I came up with 5 more? 10? 100? What would it take? Once again, I don't have pictures, eye-witnesses or receipts. Seriously, what would it take? All I have is what we all observe and you disagree with that. Obviously, you are pre-disposed to disagree with any, or any other, indicators I come up with, so it doesn't matter.

I think you have to remember that physical fitness in golf is a relatively recent phenomenon. Tiger and Vijay are noted as being at the forefront (Hmm, that's interesting... OK OK don't throw things at me, I'm not insinuating anything there). Anyway, I think vanity, intimidation and gaining or keeping an edge might go into it without really knowing what the short term and long term effect would be. I think pro golfers saw the potential benefits and results of at least staying physically fit, and that continues today. I don't think pros see the need to get linebacker big or any benefit of PED's. With Tiger, and this is PURE CONJECTURE (so don't get overly sensitive, here), I think he was so wispy thin and unpopular with the ladies during college, he might have been attracted to something that would help him look like and become a stud. It would make sense with his later womanizing. Again, pure conjecture, no evidence, but it could be a possible motive.

And, I don't understand why you are starting to defend Tiger so vigorously. I thought you were just sitting on the sidelines being the classroom clown. Again, you extrapolate something we say into something else. No, stop it. It's not what we are "really saying." I've listed several indicators (not evidence) that insinuate it's possible. These are NOT just signs of aging. I've cited a medical article (and there are many others) that list these indicators and state that, by themselves, none of these signs indicate that someone is taking anabolic steroids, but they could alert others to the possibility that drug abuse is occurring. That's from the medical article, not my words. I don't know what other "strong" arguments you are looking for. I don't have any pictures of him juicing, receipts for steroid purchases or eyewitnesses to present to the court. All I have is public observations and comparisons to what physicians say are effects and side effects of steroid use. What else would convince you that it is likely, or even possible, that he took PED's? Please...I'm at a loss.

Me too. There is one guy in particular I knew that had real bad acne. He exploded in size in about a year. And, he definitely had roid rage. He was hot headed, before. I played golf with him and he on more than one occasion got a club stuck up in a tree. Anyway, take a look at this article. http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=13729 From the article (not my words, theirs): Some signs of anabolic steroid use include: Puffy face Severe acne (on face, chest, upper back, and thighs) Development of breast tissue in men Joint pain Hyperactivity Increased weight gain over a short period of time Yellowing of skin and/or eyes Male pattern baldness By themselves, none of these signs indicate that someone is taking anabolic steroids, but they could alert parents and coaches to the possibility that drug abuse is occurring. You can internet search many other articles, which talk about such things as steroid abuse contributing to an increased risk of tendon rupture and designer steroids that limit acne.

Thanks HB. That's what I suspected. I've been thinking about trading my 2H for a 60. Maybe I'll get a 60/8 or a 60/7. I wish my G15's didn't have so much bounce, but I understand it's there for "game improvement."

OK!! NOW, we're getting somewhere. Much better than your original lazy "REBUTTAL." First of all, your premise IS ridiculous. None of these characteristics taken individually means someone is taking PED/steroids. Again, I used these INDICATORS as a whole to insinuate that he could've taken them. Look at it this way. If he didn't have any of the indicators, it would be less likely that he used them. That's still a long way from saying that because he exhibits any or all of these characteristics that he is a steroid user or not. You like putting words in my mouth or extrapolating my meaning, but I never said because he has characteristic A,B,C...n, he is a steroid user. In fact, I said he did not exhibit one of the characteristics (acne) as far as I'm aware. I wasn't making a case. I was pointing out a few things. Draw your own conclusion. You mistakenly concluded that I was making an argumentative case. I'm not privy to his private life. I don't know what he does or doesn't do. All I can do is observe what we see in the public. To have the proof you (and others) demand, it would seem that he would need to be as big as an Offensive Lineman (rather than a Linebacker) and there would need to be witnesses that came forward who saw him actually take the drugs. Well, neither one of those happened. That also doesn't mean he didn't take them, either. Doesn't prove or disprove a thing. I stand by my insinuations. These are indicators. You cannot say he does not exhibit all of these: Increased muscle mass - Doesn't mean he didn't get that from regular diet and body building techniques. Also, doesn't mean he had other help from PEDs. Hair loss - yes, he has hair loss Mood swings/aggressiveness - yes. I'll add bizarre behavior during his episode of infidelity Body tissue breakdown in later life - He's not even 40 yet. Steroids can cause premature aging. I'm consistent in what I said and meant, before. Did he take them? I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised. The other ridiculous thing is trying to hold a court hearing on a message forum.

Hey, you gotta pick a side here! Team Tiger, aka The Mark Steinbergs -or- The Tiger Haters, aka "We're not entitled to an opinion unless it comes with iron-clad proof of evidence."

At least YOU recognized it wasn't an argument. And, yes, it was weak...my response, that is.