Mr. Desmond

Don't think GI Irons will hurt your game. They in all likelihood will make the game easier in some ways - misses may not seem or be as bad. They may not ultimately offer the feedback you want -- they may be a little numb. You may not like them around the green due to the huge width of the soles -- so if you like to use an 8i with which to chip, it may seem bulky and have too much effective bounce. (stay on your front foot during the shot) And like I stated, it may seem numb, and too hot -- lack sensitivity, which bothers a lot of players. You might bring up the heel off the ground to deaden chips a tad so they don't run out. Try it if you normally use a GI Iron around the green, and try a normal 52-60 wedge -- compare. Good luck.

1. I've asked that question a lot about staying with them. Here's what happened. I hadn't played in over 20 years so they were working from a clean sheet of paper. I knew nothing about golf instruction, theories, or methods. I had read 'Golf My Way' by Nicklaus in 1980. That's about it. I was told they were about the only game in town that had an organized method. 2. I went from scoring in the 120's to 90's in a relatively short time. But tempo and ballstriking were never consistent. I had terrible tempo, I found out later, from my 4th Haney instructor. The first three didn't say much --- at all. They pushed and pulled you as to what they wanted -- not much talking at all. They ignored the arm-body disconnect and didn't do much video at first. When I saw the loopy disconnect, they said, 'don't be concerned with it.' I was concerned but I put myself in their hands. They taught the traditional weight shift that leads to ballstriking issues - the issue was getting back on the front foot. There was a lot of emphasis on swinging the arms fast and out to right field and turning the back of the left wrist to the target and down to the ground (my guess -- to prevent flipping). No instruction on lower body -- only to quiet it on the way back and to stay on the inside of both feet. They'd say the lower body would follow the arm swing out to right field (for a righty). 3. Each time I'd see the loopy disconnect, they'd say "ignore it." But the problem with the arms-body disconnect and emphasis on an arm swing is that you lose your tempo, and you get terribly inconsistent ballstriking. When you had an issue, their "fixes" were to exaggerate the fix. When I began doing the exaggeration, the instructor didn't say anything. Of course, I didn't realize I was doing the exaggeration until I saw video -- which did not occur frequently enough. They didn't not talk much at all, and gave you no hints on what type of feeling might work to help. It was push, pull,manipulate. 4. When I wasn't making progress, I'd just change to another Haney instructor, thinking one of them would get it. What kept me there was the inconsistency -- I thought it was my fault, not their instruction -- I'd score a 80, then a 90, 95, then an 80. It was all over the place and it was the poor ballstriking and tempo. I left when I began looking at other models that began cropping up around 2005-07 .... I began learning about Hardy and TGM and Stack 'n Tilt. I went to a top Hardy guy and he was invested in the method, not fixing the basics. The TGM Guy was interested in the basics. I now own a tripod and a camera, and video myself frequently. Honest feedback is important. The camera doesn't lie. The thing about going through Haney, Hardy, TGM, and the beginning of Stack 'n Tilt is that I've acquired knowledge, maybe not technical knowledge, but I know more than the basics of what is occurring by viewing ballflight, divots, and through the camera. Sometimes, you don't realize how bad things are, or what occurred, until you have some knowledge, can look back and analyze what happened. As a note to instructors who read this, I'd say, Put down the ego and listen to your student, stick to your method, but take time out to fix and emphasize basics. Give them a feeling, hints, and figure out what they need to hear or feel by trying out their issues, make your student look good while working on your method. If the student has physical limitations, let him know about flexibility and strength training. And most of all, video and give him feedback so he can see. Explain a little -- everything is a balance. I predict, if you do this, you'll have your students sticking with you for the right reasons.

Went to Haney instructors for 10 years - nothing wrong with my ability or flexibility, have no physical or mental limitations. Play a good game of tennis, basketball, and have a very good short game in golf since I did more research, taught myself a bit with DVDs, books, etc, and went to Pat O'Brien for putting and short game. I'd go to Haney's Ranch and watch him teach, had his primary assistant(s) teach me during the '90s, and early 00's. The Haney method is not good at teaching the basics of the swing. They push your body here, there, and say little ... that's the Hank way .... keep it all secret and keep you ignorant. They are terrible with teaching the basic arm/body connection and the lower body movement. My experience is they want the club at a certain spot at the top, and don't really give you the basis of how to get there consistently -- ie, the Furyk loop is what often results -- the disconnect of the arms from the body, but moreso than Furyk in many cases. From the top, the basic mantra is swing to right field in a balanced manner. They teach you the exaggeration of what they want (normally, the opposite of what you're doing), and then don't stop you when you do the exaggeration -- weirdest teaching I've ever experienced. Finally, when you see the video, you see you're doing the exaggeration and say, "Hey, why didn't you stop me when you noticed I was doing the exaggeration?" No answer is what I got. That's it. All it led to was inconsistency. We'd go into a video room -- I'd see that Furyk crap in my swing, in my case, a bigger disconnect -- and tell the instructor, "I want that crap gone. That's embarrassing. I spend too much money to look like that. Do something, anything." They couldn't do it or would not do it or would not emphasize the cure. One said that it wasn't important! They either wanted my money or these guys had no idea -- all they had to say was keep that left arm tight against the chest, and get a feeling of turning the chest, keep the hands quiet, and that will eliminate most of the issue. Nope, they did not. I don't think his instructors understood the golf swing. Go into a golf shop in Dallas, mention Haney's name, and except for a few ignorant loyalists, all you'll get is a roll of the eyes. All I heard were horror stories. And I kept going -- I was an ignorant loyalist, until even I couldn't take it any longer. I felt as if I was scammed. Really. At the same time, it's not only Haney's method -- there is just a lot of bad instruction out there -- poor teachers. I went to a top Hardy guy - he didn't mention the left arm tight against the chest or handsiness, or the right elbow pointing more downwards on the backswing ... or solutions. Then in the midst of this instruction desert, I found TGM and Stack 'n Tilt, and finally, something that works consistently to improve my game. I am drinking good stuff. In fact, I went to a TGM guy, and during my first lesson with him -- he said, "Hey, keep that left arm tight against the chest.... "What did Haney do to you? What bull_ ." Still, it's all about the quality of the teacher and what he teaches, how much he cares, whether it's working, and how well the instructor communicates with you, and how much you're willing to listen and work. I've had great guys who aren't allowed to teach what they know because they are hemmed in by a "method," or just don't know. It's a bit of a crap-shoot out there.

Long answer. Don't think it's a simple one. Golf Clubs v. Golf Lessons. Chicken v. Egg. Ya know, I can't blame spending $$$ for equipment on a golf forum. I blame myself. I praise golf forums. One must know how to learn from a golf forum and know how to use them. Golf forums are part of the journey. 1. Use the forums as an educational tool - to learn about golf clubs or sources from which to learn 2. Use the forums to learn about different methods of swinging the club - that will lead you to sources from which to learn 3. After you've gone through the educational process, be honest with yourself and purchase equipment that fits your level of play (Let go of the ego and be humble). Most Important Rule: One doesn't need new or the most exotic clubs to play the game. There is no magic wand. Different clubs fit different golfers. To answer your question, after 2 years off from the game , I bought used Ping iSi Irons that came with Ping wedges, already had custom putter and was a decent putter, and kept my driver that was fitted with my old swing. I had an old 5 wood from my previous life and some hybrids. (Clubs were $900, Putter was $500 (Edel custom) It was time for lessons. I went back to golf forums, again found The Golfing Machine method and its instruction and videos. I had problems swaying, getting off the back foot -- then I saw some Foley stuff, tried it on the range and course, did some reading, it seemed like S&T;, then I came here, was influenced and bought the Stack and Tilt Book. After working on the game and my swing, I was also fitted for irons, fairways, and wedges, and shafts that fit my game instead of my ego. I spent some money -- and I won't be buying anything other than wedges or a driver for several years. Why? Because I like wedges. ( Cost of Bag - driver, 2 fairways, 2 hybrids, irons, putter, wedges ($2700). As to value, I haven't looked at another putter in over 2 years -- by having a putter that was fitted, I think I've saved over $1500k. By having irons that were fitted, I haven't looked at those either, and have probably saved over $2000, By having hybrids that are fitted, I've saved another $1k (I was a hybrid ho). By savings, I know that I would have kept on spending and spending if I had just continued to buy at retail stores instead of a custom fit specialist. Moral of Story - Starting out, I'd buy good, used equipment that fits your level of game and get it fit for length and lie, stick with that equipment, take lessons, then afterwards, get fully custom fitted with clubs you'll want to keep, and go have fun. I think you'll spend less money this way. Of course, that goes against the grain of most forums -- to keep clubs -- but that's for another topic. For some, buying clubs is their hobby or the search for the magic wand. At least, that was once my excuse. No longer. After you get your clubs, keep on educating yourself about hitting that ball consistently well and practice that short game. Good luck.

Gosh, I need to stay out of this thread! Because when there are no real golf issues to discuss, it goes every other way but good. And back to topic, I suspect we'll see the same thing from Haney -- you want club flat here (demonstrating), then you want to swing your arms out to right field.... "But Hank, what do you do with your lower body?" "Don't worry, it'll follow your arms." (after 10 unsatisfying, unexplainable, frustrating years with Haney instructors that almost drive me nutz, one can predict)

She doesn't have the typical "Cheerleader" or "All American" Look. She is not a classic beauty in the face. But I think, in the opinion of many, they would classify her face as pretty, cute, sexy, or even exotic in some ways. http://www.golfspelledbackwards.com/2010/05/hank-haneys-wife.html

Good counsel so far -- From what little I know, generally, I think with any chip shot like this, the danger is quitting on it -- the club slowing in the down swing, and the ball remaining in the fringe. I tend to be even more aware of maintaining rhythm in these type of shots, maintaining the arm-body connection, and using a short backswing so one doesn't quit, then hitting through ball crisply and with sufficient speed to get it onto the green. At the same time, my decisions on clubs where I have little room, in order of priority, is putter, hybrid, wedge - with the choice depending on the lie and slope, both on and off the green.

Prediction: The show will be entertaining. The golfer will show improvement one week, failure the next (typical of Haney students). We'll all see glaring holes in Haney's method of instruction. We'll all want to see more of Hank's wife. At the end, golfer will say, "I learned a lot, Hank is great, I've just got to do what he says." Uh, no, please don't do what he says.

I don't know -- as part of my job, I see clients in their home, older clients, 55-80, and they always have one news channel playing on the tube -- the conservative one -- and from asking questions, they get their news and their views from this one channel. I'm sure it's the same from viewers who turn on the more liberal channel. I ask them simple black-white, factual questions and I get surprising answers, ones that frighten because of the dismissing of facts (fwiw, I tend to look at facts due to my job). The point is ... many people take their media seriously , whether it's Limbaugh, Fox, CNN, MSNBC, or Olbermann (trying to be balanced here) and their views are molded by their one source -- most tend not to think about whether their news source may be trying to influence them one way or the other. It's sort of the "dumbing down" of the USA. Many people do not think -- they absorb. When one doesn't filter what they're hearing or seeing, they become clones of their media sources -- nonthinking dittoheads, so to speak (either from the left or right - trying to maintain balance here).

Remember, golfers are typically a conservative group. I'd add more, and it might comfort you. But it would rouse others. Let's just say, it's best to stick to golf. One can say something apolitical like "I don't like the way the guy makes his money" and leave it at that. It would be the same for any other individual who uses similar tactics at the other end of the spectrum.

Has anyone seen both the Golf Digest Young Instructors Series with Sean Foley and this "Next Generation" DVD with Foley -- and can compare and contrast. I received the book -- The Stack and Tilt Swing -- about a week after I ordered it on amazon ($13 w shipping) and on first browse -- it looks great. But am wondering about the comparison above... Thanks!

From my (poor) experience with Haney instructors, they are more arm swing driven, and connection is not something they discuss. When I saw Limbaugh's swing, I thought - "arms", he needs more lower body - and Haney types are normally not the ones to fix that issue. Someone, somewhere, mentioned Limbaugh has a tough time getting of his "right" side -- (didn't look closely) not surprising. Hank is great at knowing what's wrong -- but solving issues? I don't see Haney using anything but "old" solutions and don't think anyone here will be too impressed. But we'll see. That's why they play the game, or in this game, produce the show.

It is tough to watch the show. On one hand, it will be the most entertaining. Limbaugh is one of the those guys where, if you're smart, you roll your eyes and not take in anything he says. And he says a lot of words in an entertaining manner. On the other hand, his fans seem to take him seriously, he thinks he is a great American, a great listener, etc., and knows he is influential. And to put it as nicely as possible,he makes his money by dividing people in a questionable manner and using the type of rhetoric that dehumanizes people he opposes. At the same time, you want to give the guy a fair shake and separate what he does from who he is as a golfer. I'm sure some will enjoy the show. I can't support watching this guy. On the other hand, Hank's wife is easy on the eyes. I wonder if they brought her in to soften up the show to keep viewers who don't appreciate Limbaugh --- viewing.

I enjoy Lamkin rubber compound grips. In my experience, they endure longer than GP. I played Lamkin before I went with Gripmaster USA Leather Grips. If you want tacky, look no further. If you want a grip that lasts a couple of years and is tacky in the cold and wet, try Gripmaster. Yes, they cost 3X as much, but I don't like to change grips and I don't change my irons. And yes, PGA Tour Pros play them.

Here is an opinion -- I like them and I've owned about every brand since 1994 -- Etonic (mid-90's), Adidas, Footjoy, and Ecco, etc. The Trues are the most comfortable I've ever worn and I believe they will help my game not only with comfort but the fit and/or design allows you to feel what your feet are doing -- I have a lot more sensitivity in that area during the swing. Try them.

I am a street shoe 10.5-11, wore a 10.5 in FJ Reel-Fits, and they're a little tight. I went with a True Size 11 Black/Black - and they're just right - not tight, not loose -- fits well at the heel, plenty of forefoot comfort. Played them right before Christmas for 18 holes and they were great. One is more connected to the ground, you can sense your feet better, and they are super comfy. I may try a my sole orthotic to see what happens.

I don't know if I mentioned it above, but to the original poster, OMG, the 17 is their club for scratch and pros -- it's no wonder it did not fit you. Most players don't like the 19 because it is not easy to get in the air -- the 21 is the first one most should choose. Look, it's a small profile club, no 18 hc should use it. As the other poster said, stick to 4 woods and 5 woods at that hc level.

Jesse only sells legal clubs. It's a great club if you like a wedge with a rounded profile and a little more heft -- which helps with partial shots -- it's a very accurate club with great feel for a cast -- due to the 3M insert behind the face. He is introducing a 48 to go with the 52, 56, 60 and 64 lofts - he has a standard bounce option and a low bounce option.

The clubs are not bogus. You made an uninformed purchase. The Player's Editions Clubs are the clubs that have been sold for the last 2 years. The Workshop Editions (the one you wanted), with the new lofts and modified design, do not debut until April. When Golf Digest tests these clubs, they want the new designs and makers need to get the prototypes to them around Sept-October for testing. If you purchased from an authorized dealer, try to obtain a refund within the 30 day period of purchase. If not, call Bobby Jones, tell them what you intended to purchase, return the club to them and get on the list for the new edition. I've got to warn you, though, that the 17 Hybrid is meant for better players -- it is a tour club. Even the 19 is for better players in the Player's Series. The first one I'd start with in the original Player's series is the 21.