• Announcements

    • iacas

      Create a Signature!   02/05/2016

      Everyone, go here and edit your signature this week: http://thesandtrap.com/settings/signature/.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
tmf9

Does swing plane really matter?

6 posts in this topic

I used to take lessons about a year and a half ago, and all i ever heard about was swing plane.  When I started taking lessons I was probably about a 5 handicap, and all I heard was your swing plane is too upright, you got to get it flatter) well i went from about a five handicap to a ten and actually took several months off due to frustration with the game.  When I started back playing I told myself I was not taking anymore lessons, and I was going back to what got me to where I was, pure feel.  Well I've been playing to a +.2 so far on this young golf season and if I get my touch back with my wedges I really feel like I have the potential to get to a +2 or +3 this season.  My question is does swing plane really matter that much as long as you get it to where in needs to be on the downswing? I see several different ways of getting it done on tour (rickie fowler and kuchar have really flat swing, and people like daly and phil cross the line at the top) so really how important is it.  I might be wrong but Butch Harmon is widely considered the best teacher in the world and I don't think he's a huge advocate of swing plane.  I guess im asking someone who knows a lot more about the golfswing than I to tell me what makes the swing plane on the backswing so important?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

Key #4 in 5 Simple Keys is "Diagonal Sweetspot Path" but all of the PGA Tour players you mentioned control it. Nobody good plays golf "along the wall of a house" or "along the floor of a house." They all play rooftop to gutter, along some sort of inclined plane.

If you can orient yours in the proper direction, and it's efficient and hits the shots you want, plane becomes "less important." Though as a word of caution, plane tends to feed into path, and path is very important to good players - who are almost always working on Keys #4 and #5.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I feel like I do a good job with path, I've gotten pretty good at being able to hit controlled fades, and controlled draws.  Most of my misses I feel are a result of "timing" rather than improper path, (maybe why I'm not overly concerned with plane) I guess I just feel like a lot of teacher teach players a golf swing, but don't teach how to hit golf shots. (If that makes any sense)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, swing plane "matters" since you can't really swing a club without one sort of happening.  From where I'm sitting in the peanut gallery, it seems to me that based on your results as indicated by handicap index, you must have an okay swing plane.

So, what's up?  In my rather humble opinion (which I share freely because this is the Internet baby! ) there are a lot of "teaching pros" out there, some are quite good... some not so much. I suspect that some of the latter have some sort of more or less "cookie cutter" swing they try to get people into. This may well be generally successful with their run of the mill 20 handicap club member hackers they spend most of their time working with.

I don't know what prompted you to seek out lessons, but I would think that any good teacher would take a very different approach when dealing with a low handicap player than with the average hacker.  I would sort of expect that there would be a lot of discussion about what the teacher is seeing and why certain changes are being suggested and that after those conversations you wouldn't need to pose this sort of question. I would also have hoped the teacher would have seen his suggestions weren't making things better and adjusted...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by PirateJim

Sure, swing plane "matters" since you can't really swing a club without one sort of happening.  From where I'm sitting in the peanut gallery, it seems to me that based on your results as indicated by handicap index, you must have an okay swing plane.

So, what's up?  In my rather humble opinion (which I share freely because this is the Internet baby! ) there are a lot of "teaching pros" out there, some are quite good... some not so much. I suspect that some of the latter have some sort of more or less "cookie cutter" swing they try to get people into. This may well be generally successful with their run of the mill 20 handicap club member hackers they spend most of their time working with.

I don't know what prompted you to seek out lessons, but I would think that any good teacher would take a very different approach when dealing with a low handicap player than with the average hacker.  I would sort of expect that there would be a lot of discussion about what the teacher is seeing and why certain changes are being suggested and that after those conversations you wouldn't need to pose this sort of question. I would also have hoped the teacher would have seen his suggestions weren't making things better and adjusted...

Well, I was 17 at the time and although I was a low handicapper I had very limited knowledge of the golfswing.  I have a feeling now that the pro was trying to take my swing and basically turn it into a completely different swing, instead of taking the things I did naturally and sort of improving it.  Idk the pro kept telling me how much potential I had due to my hand eye coordination and pretty good athleticism, perhaps he was trying to give me the "textbook" swing.  I was seeking out lessons because at the time when I missed, I missed BIG.  I will give the pro credit he really helped me with my weight transfer, but the process of trying to flatten my swing ruined me.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since there is a correlation swing plane is important but I would only care to know the connection if I was either filming my swing or it is important for teachers to learn about. Like Erik said it does have to deal with key #4.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Posts

    • My Swing (coop6)
      It pretty much is, I'm not going to debate 5 degrees with you. As I've said repeatedly, Tiger's swing and a standard swing do not require rotation. On this shot he rotated 5 degrees, not much. If you want to play with rotation to closed enjoy. I prefer to keep the club square. 
    • Struggles of turning pro
      http://thesandtrap.com/blogs/ Normally you must be an Established Member to create a blog, but I've enabled this for you now.
    • No Forearm Rotation - Biggest Swing Flaw?
      Completely bogus. The arms (forearms) rotate in every good golf swing. Here's an old thread that's appropriate for this discussion.   Also, I don't think I've ever really seen a golfer, throughout his backswing, rotate his forearms the opposite way. For short periods of time, maybe a few golfers "counter-rotate," but all end up rotating some. No, there won't be "arguments" over this, or there shouldn't be, because… like many things, this is pretty much a fact. There really doesn't need to be an argument or a discussion. It's a knowable, understandable thing. Hunter, like every other PGA Tour pro, rotates his forearms during the backswing. You're rotating your arms as you do this. It's subtle, but if you just pick the club up straight without rotating, you'll have the shaft resting against the top of your head. Look at where the back of your left hand points. Toward the target at setup, and then rotated to put the club on your right shoulder. Turn to the top when the club is on your face or the top of your head and the club will be leaning out over the target line (it'll be roughly parallel to your bend toward the ball, since it's basically just staying inline with your spine). Bending your right arm rotates your forearms. It pulls everything to the right (you can't bend your right arm straight in front of you without also bending your left arm). Then even more rotation is added after that. I agree that you don't want to be doing a lot of "things" on the downswing, but that's not how physics works. You can do all sorts of things on the backswing and not do them on the downswing. We have students who swing steep to steep, steep to shallow, shallow to steep, shallow to shallow, and all sorts of things. We have students who address the ball with a closed clubface, roll it way open, and then return it wide open, etc. The "equal and opposite" does not mean a delayed reaction - it means that if I push on something it will, right at that very moment, push back. If I fire rocket propulsion downward, the missile or space shuttle or whatever will move upward. You don't fire rockets and then, a week later, a different missile takes off as a "reaction." Furthermore, PGA Tour players have a variety of backswings. Ray Floyd was underneath, Rickie Fowler or Ryan Moore are steep or over the top on the backswing. The golfer who comes closest to the "square" or "no rotation" backswing is a guy who CAN'T really rotate his forearms: Tim Clark. And even Tim rotates some. But notice how far "out over his head" the clubhead is, despite the fact that he's well short of parallel on the backswing. It's so much more than that. I ask people in my lessons how much skill or raw natural talent it takes to set up properly. The correct answer: none. They just have to know how to do it. If golf was as simple as "set up properly and then turn" we'd all be a whole lot better than we are. Golfers can be set up the same and make very, very different backswings, and both can be successful. So Bubba is doing it wrong? And what does that have to do with the swing flaw of "rotating your forearms"? (Is overswinging a big problem? Absolutely. More, IMO, for what it tends to do to the trail elbow and the subsequent inability of the player to get the arms and hands down fast enough. I'll never really argue against overswinging, except when it's made as a blanket statement covering all golfers who go past parallel or something.) Also, you said (though it feels off topic since this is mostly about forearm rotation, n'est-ce pas?) "the more you have to wait for them to come down." That's not really true - you can MAKE them come down faster. Your arms aren't just limp things hanging from your shoulders that get dragged behind your hips and torso rotating. Because, biomechanically, making a swing with no forearm rotation would be ridiculous and resemble the golf swings of precisely no good players, ever. Tim Clark comes closest, and people don't even copy his swing, and if Tim Clark's forearms would rotate as most people's do, even Tim Clark would have a different golf swing. Modeling your golf swing on someone with a disability hardly seems like the prudent choice. My last piece of evidence, right here: This should drive the point home pretty significantly. Spoiler One last thing here. Consider the sagittal plane (in the spoiler above, just so it's not taking up a ton of space) and the back of the left hand (assuming a right-handed golfer). At address, they're parallel - the back of the left hand is parallel to the sagittal plane. Yet at the top of the backswing, what do we see? The sagittal plane (at the point of attachment of the arms, i.e. near the shoulders) is about 90° from where it started. It's inclined at about 35° or so, but otherwise just is still just a plane bisecting the sternum, neck, face, etc. What plane is the back of the left wrist on? Why, it's one that's about 90° to the sagittal plane. I've illustrated this here: In this illustration, I've drawn a little "cube" in the screen on the left. The green face of the cube is parallel to the sagittal plane (the edge of the plane is pointing "at the camera"). The blue side - perpendicular to the green side - is parallel to the back of the left hand. It too is pointing at the camera, but has rotated about 90°. That's why it's parallel to a perpendicular side of the cube. On the right, above, to make the back of Mike's left hand parallel the green face of the cube, he'd have to rotate his arms BACK about 90° to the red line. Now, then, @Golfer2223, you'd set a record as the first human being in history to present an argument as you have done and immediately recognize, given my response and a little thought on your part, that you want to take back your entire argument and completely change your position. In other words, I don't expect that to happen. A small part of me hopes it will some day, but I don't think today is going to be that day. But, realistically, that's what should happen. As I see it, you have no real ground to stand on here. Not biomechanically, not based on simple geometry, nothing. The arms rotate during the backswing in EVERY good player. Even in Tim Clark's backswing (or he'd truly have the club hanging out over his head. I will also say this, @Golfer2223: I appreciate your willingness to help, and to jump in, and to offer your thoughts on things. I hope you can take this rebuttal in the spirit in which it's intended - to help and to discuss. I don't know who you are (you should add more info to your profile), and I'm not responding just to be mean, but to help people learn, think critically, and better understand the golf swing. We encourage debate and discussion here, and that's all my response is to be taken as - more debate and discussion. Do I think I'm right? Yes. And I think I've backed up why. P.S. As someone noted above, often students need to feel like there's no rotation in the backswing. But that doesn't make it accurate.
    • Northern Michigan Courses
      I have been to Northern Michigan on several occasions. There are a lot of great golf courses but they are SPREAD OUT so keep driving distance in mind.   Arcadia Bluffs Forest Dunes True North Little Traverse Bay Belvedere Dunmaglas Black Lake Grand Traverse Resort (Nicklaus and Player Course) Lochenheath  Leelanau Boyne Hills Course   These are all EXCELLENT golf courses that are worth playing
    • Crandon/Key Biscayne or Biltmore
      Wow, tough choice! Key Biscayne or Crandon. Either one would be awesome.
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

  • Blog Entries