Is Oakmont fair?

**Clubswinger21** · June 13, 2007

Do you think the 288 yard par 3 fair? A question the golf channel asked on 'Live'.. is Oakmont fair general? After reading what Erik posted on the sandtrap home page (which was great by the way). Phil had some greens running at 11.5 and others at above 14?!

To me thats a considerable amount of difference.. I realize some greens are in the sun more than others which is going to cause this but its just another factor thats going to affect scorecards. What about the 288 yard par 3? is that fair for players hitting 3 woods??? Its a scary whole for probably the whole field.. even those (long hitters) able to hit hybrids and very few who are carrying 2 irons it may be slightly easier. All i know is 3 wood is a club used to find a fairway, not a green (aside from par 5's) and the way these greens are.. its pretty much get it some where around the green where you can make an easy up and down.

One could make a case there is also a driveable 311 yard par 4..

**MGP** · June 13, 2007

After watching the Golf Channel preview of the course last night it just reinforced my opinion:

All the golfers have to play the same course for the tournament under the same conditions. It doesn't matter if the course is rated 90+ with a slope of 200 and a par of 70. The golfer with the lowest score still wins regardless of what "par" is assigned to it.

So the course is always "fair" in my opinion. Is it really difficult? You bet! Will the winning score be under par? I dunno but that doesn't really matter. Low score will still win.

**golfchief** · June 13, 2007

Be sure to get all the info right, number 8 is a par three that can be set up for 252 to 288 yds. The greens at Oakmont are huge and they have not said the hole will be back at the 288 distance. The longest par three I've played was 243 which is long for hacks like us and that was a public course. Don't forget about the two par5's at 609yds # 4 and 632/667 yrd. #12. Only thing about the course i've heard besides being tough is the pros think it should be a par 71 instead of a par 70. Low score still wins.

**niblick** · June 13, 2007

#8 at Oakmont was a 254 yard par 3 when the course was built in 1903. Hitting driver or 3 wood was the point all along. And it was a common feature of courses in those days.

Hell yeah it's fair. Par is a made-up number. Who cares if the winning score is over or under?

**hurley9192** · June 13, 2007

usually it's the pros or people watching on tv that care about par...the winner will realize that all have to play this and go out and do it. It's fun to hear them whine about not having a course set up that they can just fire on pins and make a ton of birdies.

This course is by no means long...the things that make it long is a 500 yard par 4 and 2 600+ yard par 5's. These make the distance over 7000 yards pretty much and is the reason it's that long. There are 3 par 4's under 400 yards. Tiger can play this course without his woods and still hit every green in regulation, most of the long hitters could do that. The short hitters can complain a little, but even David Toms proved that hitting a wood on a par 3 isn't a problem with his hole in one in 2001.

The greens are treacherous, but so are Augusta's...they can handle the speed and undulations. God forbid they have to actually hit fairways and greens.

**Clubswinger21** · June 13, 2007

Be sure to get all the info right, number 8 is a par three that can be set up for 252 to 288 yds. The greens at Oakmont are huge and they have not said the hole will be back at the 288 distance. The longest par three I've played was 243 which is long for hacks like us and that was a public course. Don't forget about the two par5's at 609yds # 4 and 632/667 yrd. #12. Only thing about the course i've heard besides being tough is the pros think it should be a par 71 instead of a par 70. Low score still wins.

Its officially on the scorecard as a 288 yard hole. Of course it varies by hole location but I cant factor that in because i have no clue where the pin positions are going to be. So technically the info is right. Too bad for those hitting drivers in to that hole. Because this isnt 2001 and drivers dont go as high and have as much spin in 2007.. not to mention the balls as well.. they will not be able to stop it on the surface with a driver. You could land it perfectly on the front edge with a 3 wood and have it roll up IF your lucky. However Trevor Immelman qouted as calling the hole "kind of rediculous" managed to make an ace with a 3 wood.. so maybe the Golf Channel staff making such a big deal of the hole is just over reacting??? It goes back to the discussion about the island green at TPC, some may consider it gimmicky with the exception of Fred Funk and Jose Coseras. One things for sure it makes the tournament more interesting. Whether its fair or not.. tradition or not.

***iacas*** · June 14, 2007

Too bad for those hitting drivers in to that hole. Because this isnt 2001 and drivers dont go as high and have as much spin in 2007.. not to mention the balls as well.. they will not be able to stop it on the surface with a driver. You could land it perfectly on the front edge with a 3 wood and have it roll up IF your lucky.

You are speaking about something you do not understand. A few things:

a) the run-up area in front of the green is firm b) the hole plays downwind (prevailing wind anyway) c) the hole plays downhill nearly one club d) the green is one of the simplest, flattest on the course In other words, you're not trying to "stop" the ball on the surface. You're trying to hit a running three-wood or even 5-wood or iron to roll the ball onto the surface, from which you have a relatively easy two-putt. Or, if you come up short, you have a relatively easy up-and-down. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that it won't even be the hardest par three on the course this week.

**Clubswinger21** · June 14, 2007

You are speaking about something you do not understand. A few things:

Obviously I havent seen it 1st hand. I havent even seen an open played here. Im merely repeating what I've heard on Live from, on the golf channel. They said some of the short hitters may be hitting drivers. But I never said anything about carrying a shot on to the green and stopping it. I was saying there is alot of luck involved when you're hitting a 3 wood into a hole ie. firmer kicks then expected or vice verca. Either way im sure we will see alot of missed GIR's. But then again you're there and im not.. As I said maybe everyone is over reacting considering Trevor Immelman was able to ace the hole in his practice round. Even he was qouted as calling the hole rediculous, but then again so were alot of players.

***iacas*** · June 14, 2007

They said some of the short hitters may be hitting drivers.

Some may be, yes. So? That doesn't make it a bad hole or a ridiculous one. It's fairer, you could argue, than a hole that lets a long hitter reach but which doesn't let a shorter hitter reach (like a long par five).

But I never said anything about carrying a shot on to the green and stopping it.

Yes, you did. I responded to that and you said "they will not be able to stop it on the surface with a driver." Then you talked about 3W and not getting a bounce. Take it from those who are there and leave it at that.

I was saying there is alot of luck involved when you're hitting a 3 wood into a hole ie. firmer kicks then expected or vice verca. Either way im sure we will see alot of missed GIR's. But then again you're there and im not.

Missed GIR != automatic double bogey or bogey, especially when players who are smart will have an easy putt or chip to get the ball down in two.

**Thrdroc** · June 14, 2007

This par 3 is just like the long par 5's where the players hit 3W into the green from 280 out. Its the same premise. To me its perfectly fine and most of the players when asked about it didn't seem to mind it. I will say there will not be many 2's there but there will be plenty of pars.

June 14, 2007

What does it signify when scores go across the tv and there is a "T" with a number. ex: T9 or T40... Thanks, this has been driving me crazy.

Fil

**hurley9192** · June 14, 2007

it means they are "tied for 9th"...e.g. if you and I are both at 2 under par and leading the tourney we are tied for first or T1.

As far as being fair...one thing that can make the course unfair is sticking the pins in locations where if you barely miss a putt, it would roll back to your feet like what happened at Olympic in 1998.

June 14, 2007

Thanks, I can breath without stress now... lol

**CG031** · June 14, 2007

The course is really hard, but it's fair. some of the players need to stop bitching about the challenge and just play their best.

**ezmoney5150** · June 15, 2007

I think the hole is fair. The USGA sets these courses up to play fast and firm. The hole is designed to run it up off of the apron. Today the tee was up playing about 250. I watched a bunch of people hit sling hook 3 irons up on that green. If it was playing uphill into the wind, I might say it was unfair.

**ezmoney5150** · June 15, 2007

Adam Scott hit a 2 iron on the 8th hole just on the apron. The pin was cut up front, so thats where you want to play it. Not an un-fair hole in my opinion.

**allin** · June 15, 2007

I was wondering about wind and the downhill factor, but I still feel that trend in professional golf to toughen courses by adding length is over emphasizing power as a factor in Golf. I belive that the brag factor, being able to say your home club is 7600 yards from the tip and because if you have enough room adding length is simpler and less expensive than adding traps, water, new routing with doglegs etc, or maintaining rough, trees etc.

**LarryK** · June 15, 2007

I don't think the appropriate question has to do with "fairness". As MGP pointed out, as long as everyone is playing the same course, that's fair.

The better question has to do with whether or not the USGA can provide the severest possible test of golf for the best players in the world, and still have that course set up be "reasonable". They haven't always done that, but this year, I think they got it right.

The evidence that they have, are the rounds by Nick Dougherty and Paul Casey -- competent professionals to be sure, but hardly who we would have picked to shoot lights out, right?

Their rounds pretty much rob everyone else of any excuse. So yeah, tough, fair and reasonable. An awful lot of guys still have a chance to win this thing.

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Is Oakmont fair?

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