Is it the equipment or the athletes?

[SwinginCaveman]

So the Golf Channel has a skins match on right now from about 97-98. It was Arnold Palmer and Tiger vs Charles Howell and Tom Lehman. Tiger looked pretty young so it's definitely older, just not sure what year.

Either way, they were playing a 210 yard Par 3 and no one hit anything shorter than a 4 iron. At the PODS Championship this past weekend, people were hitting 4 and 5 irons (certainly not 3s) onto the green and I'm sure Tiger could do it with a 6 with a good rip.

It's obvious people are hitting the ball much further than before, but I never really took notice.

So is it the equipment and technology getting better or are the people playing just improving, much like other sports? Could be a combination of both, as well.

[Wisco-Kid]

It is both. Equipment is getting better and so are the athletes. Tiger has brought the game of golf to a level where just having good equipment won't win you tournaments (not that it ever did). The pros have to train, workout, watch their diet etc. When you combine those factors with the new technology in the equipment things get interesting.

One question though, what were the conditions like on the skins game you were watching. Could it have been windy or rainy?

[Shindig]

Tiger Woods popularized two things that the winning-est players in their eras seemed to know: to do well at golf consistently, you need to be in good physical shape and think well on the course. Tom Kite knew these things, and he was pretty darn good in his day - he was almost the oldest to win on the PGA Tour a few years ago (I think he lost a 54-hole lead in '05).

The equipment helps, sure. A player in great shape with the current equipment can probably outdrive the same player in the same shape with equipment from the 1950s. But everyone playing has this advantage. It's the fitness that distinguishes the long drivers from the guys who win golf tournaments. Tiger just happens to be in that intersection.

[geezer]

I remember seeing this re-run. From what I remember, the conditions were fairly ideal. Not much wind, warm and sunny. Pretty much everything we don't get over here!

Yeah, I think that the equipment plays a part (I think that Tiger was playing a steel shafted driver with <400cc in that game, unless he was just hitting three wood that day), but the golfers have come on leaps and bounds also. Look at Tiger then and now. He must be a stone heavier! So a combination of golfers and equipment is the cause, imo.

[mutadayen]

I honestly think it's more equipment than athlete. I have a set of TaylorMade forged TP MB irons, and my friend went nuts and bought the new TaylorMade r7 CGB Max irons. This is his second year playing and his stance/swing is major site for sore eyes. Regardless, i can get a 5 iron out about 205-215 yards on the fly. I had him take 10 swings with my irons, and 10 with his. With the forged, he couldnt get it to go past 175. The CGB Max, he was getting about 190. I did the same test with both clubs and average what I usually did with the forged, but hit around 10 yards further with the CGB Max. Maybe this wont hold up as conclusive evidence, but it's part of my argument. I think if you're fit and flexible, you will hit it further, but i think equipment has so much to do with todays amatuer success. When you get to the pro level, I think alot of them can grab any set of irons and have considerable success with them.

[sonicblue]

I honestly believe that equipment can certainly make you hit it farther and to some extent make you hit it straighter. That's about 30% of the game, maybe. Plus, PGA courses have all lengthened to accomodate that improvement. If they had done nothing with course length, you would probably have seen quite a few 61, 60 and 59's in the last few years.

For the average golfer, who was woefully short before, new equipment may make his mishits not go quite as awry and a bit farther, but to a negligible impact on score. IMO, unless you're playing with 30 year-old hickory-shafted mashies, if you're truly a hacker, new equipment is nothing more than the ultimate panacea.

[Shindig]

He must be a stone heavier! So a combination of golfers and equipment is the cause, imo.

Tiger turned pro at 6'2 158lbs. I'm quite certain he's a stone heavier now, at least. It's good weight, though

[geezer]

Yeah, all muscle.

As for modern equipment increasing distance. the R7CGB Max irons (just to pick a random example) are designed to make amateurs hit it further. that is, they are stronger lofted and have longer shafts and are lighter. Probably, anyway.

mutadayen: Check the lofts on your blades and the lofts on the CGB's. You might find there is a couple of degrees difference there. That might explain the distance gaps. And I agree that pros can play well with any set of clubs.

[golf_junkie27]

I believe it's a combination of both. I think golfers are bigger and stronger than ever before. Combine that with the technological advances of the golf ball , golf shafts, which I believe have made a bigger impact than the actual change in golf heads and the differences are major.

For example, look at how many pros are averaging , off the tee, over 290 yards. It's a pretty remarkable amount.

Ultimately, though, it's still about putting the ball in the cup.

[JSC924]

Swinging caveman, it's always hard to tell on TV how long the hole is playing. Back at the Buick earlier this year, there was a 215 yard par 3 and Tiger didn't hit the green with a 2 iron (although there was considerable cross wind). But I do believe both fitness AND equipment have contributed to the increase in yardages.

Shindig, as far as Tiger weighing more, it's definitely correct, but I saw a recent golf channel interview wheich he stated that he had a driver swing speed of 130mph when he was 20 years old and have actually decreased that speed down to around 124mph for more control. Actually, what I'm trying to say is Tiger has some divine talent that most of us will never achieve.

[denver_nuggs_15]

Equipment definately helps but I think that the athletes are responsible for the change. Think about it in another sport: basketball for example. Everyone is faster, stronger, and better than 20 years ago. The reason is because today kids start sports younger and more seriously when they are younger (i.e. travel teams and AAU teams). Also, there is much better training today than before. Think of all of the golf schools, new courses, and teachers now. All in all, technology helps, but athletes change the game more.

[Avid Golfer]

I honestly think it's more equipment than athlete. I have a set of TaylorMade forged TP MB irons, and my friend went nuts and bought the new TaylorMade r7 CGB Max irons. This is his second year playing and his stance/swing is major site for sore eyes. Regardless, i can get a 5 iron out about 205-215 yards on the fly. I had him take 10 swings with my irons, and 10 with his. With the forged, he couldnt get it to go past 175. The CGB Max, he was getting about 190. I did the same test with both clubs and average what I usually did with the forged, but hit around 10 yards further with the CGB Max. Maybe this wont hold up as conclusive evidence, but it's part of my argument. I think if you're fit and flexible, you will hit it further, but i think equipment has so much to do with todays amatuer success. When you get to the pro level, I think alot of them can grab any set of irons and have considerable success with them.

Like Mutadayen I believe it is more equipment than the athlete. Club companies keep strengthening the lofts of the irons which gives the player the impression they hit the ball father. In addition you've got center of gravity and moi that has changed in the club heads, differently constructed shafts so that ball flight changes, and then you've got golf balls that have less drag (ex: Callaway) and different spin properties (dimples: Taylormade, etc material: everybody

). The TP have weaker lofts (and higher center of gravity) than the CGB max irons, and in my opinion that is why the CGB produce more distance than the RAC. I don't believe that golfers today are any fitter than some of the golfers of the past. Gary Player was extremely fit, as was Greg Norman and Nick Faldo. They were as fit, if not fitter, than anyone playing the game today. While knowledge of fitness, biomechanics, etc may be more mainstream today it doesn't equal better players. As came up not to long ago many players in other sports were exposed as using drugs and equipment that gave them benefits over other players. The drugs allowed them to keep their minds and bodies in states for longer periods of times then were other wise sustainable. Modified equipment (ex: bats) gave players edges as well. These outside influences may have skewed statistics in the other sports to give the impression they were better than players of the past. Golfers today aren't destroying course records, and shooting scores below their predecessors (no one has shot a 58 in tournament competition, and no one has achieved the fabled 54), and that is good enough proof to me that golfers of today are not better than golfers of the past.

[r7 425]

It is both. Equipment is getting better and so are the athletes. Tiger has brought the game of golf to a level where just having good equipment won't win you tournaments (not that it ever did). The pros have to train, workout, watch their diet etc. When you combine those factors with the new technology in the equipment things get interesting.

Athleticism in golf is way overrated its not even funny. Thats why no one under 30 wins on the PGA Tour. Its just about solid contact. I played on a tour where the best kid was the fattest kid out of everyone and i can tell you athleticism doesnt make you hit the ball any solider. Bubba Watson and JB Holmes dont lift or do anything like that. They just know how to square the face. The equipment is everything especially the ball. I mean the balls today go soo far and especially with titanium clubfaces

[907golfer12]

Athleticism in golf is way overrated its not even funny. Thats why no one under 30 wins on the PGA Tour. Its just about solid contact. I played on a tour where the best kid was the fattest kid out of everyone and i can tell you athleticism doesnt make you hit the ball any solider. Bubba Watson and JB Holmes dont lift or do anything like that. They just know how to square the face. The equipment is everything especially the ball. I mean the balls today go soo far and especially with titanium clubfaces

If it is so over-rated then why do almost all of the guys do training everyday before tournaments, including Tiger Woods? I agree that it doesn't help ball striking at all, but it does play a big roll in playing on tour. I mean those guys play week after week, walking all lengths of courses 4 days in a row. I would love to see you try to play that long, for that many weeks on those length of courses without getting tired and still shoot as low as they do, and perform consistantly. Although I do not think I could do it easily either, so I'm not bashing on you specifically, I am just making a point.

[r7 425]

If it is so over-rated then why do almost all of the guys do training everyday before tournaments, including Tiger Woods? I agree that it doesn't help ball striking at all, but it does play a big roll in playing on tour. I mean those guys play week after week, walking all lengths of courses 4 days in a row. I would love to see you try to play that long, for that many weeks on those length of courses without getting tired and still shoot as low as they do, and perform consistantly. Although I do not think I could do it easily either, so I'm not bashing on you specifically, I am just making a point.

Everyone trains because they think they will be better. I mean you could have Michael Jordan with Tiger's Golf Game and the scores wouldnt change. Golf is not a sport it is just a game. I know people that have never worked out in their life and are close to 300 pounds that hit the ball further than all of the athletic type golfers at my local course. Take for instance--Tim Herron--He made the Tour Championship 7 out of 11 years on tour. It doesnt matter if you run a marathon everyday or stretch and lift weights. People on Tour think they can have a supposed "edge" on their competition by training. Ive talked to sources about this -and it really doesnt make any difference

[907golfer12]

Everyone trains because they think they will be better. I mean you could have Michael Jordan with Tiger's Golf Game and the scores wouldnt change. Golf is not a sport it is just a game. I know people that have never worked out in their life and are close to 300 pounds that hit the ball further than all of the athletic type golfers at my local course. Take for instance--Tim Herron--He made the Tour Championship 7 out of 11 years on tour. It doesnt matter if you run a marathon everyday or stretch and lift weights. People on Tour think they can have a supposed "edge" on their competition by training. Ive talked to sources about this -and it really doesnt make any difference

All you did is restate your previous post in different words, if you are going to quote my post, at least talk about it

[Shindig]

Everyone trains because they think they will be better. I mean you could have Michael Jordan with Tiger's Golf Game and the scores wouldnt change. Golf is not a sport it is just a game. I know people that have never worked out in their life and are close to 300 pounds that hit the ball further than all of the athletic type golfers at my local course. Take for instance--Tim Herron--He made the Tour Championship 7 out of 11 years on tour. It doesnt matter if you run a marathon everyday or stretch and lift weights. People on Tour think they can have a supposed "edge" on their competition by training. Ive talked to sources about this -and it really doesnt make any difference

Working out and being in shape actually help for reasons unrelated to hitting the ball.

There is a correlation between physical fitness and mental fitness. As you get exhausted physically, your ability to focus and bear down on a problem decreases. Note that this is different from the refreshment you get at the gym. Walking the courses they walk on TOUR provides this level of problem. The exhaustion really hurts in the short game, because the margin for error is so much smaller. A mental lapse with the driver might land you in the wrong half of the fairway or the first cut, and you'll likely be fine. Mental lapse with the putter and it's a stroke on the scorecard with no necessary improvement in your situation. A bad chip or sand shot can put you in a worse situation. Yes, there are out of shape people who can bomb it. Bombing it doesn't produce red numbers ; it only helps if you take advantage of those scoring opportunities. Look at John Daly, for example. Out of shape, not mentally focused, bombs the ball forever. He's made great red numbers and been in the money how often lately? Contrast him with Corey Pavin and Fred Funk, who don't bomb it, but are in shape, accurate, and mentally focused. What was the last time Pavin or Funk had a triple? I'm not saying good players don't have triple bogeys - Luke Donald had a snowman on a par-4 recently. But they don't make a habit of it.

[SwinginCaveman]

The conditions on that day were pretty good. A little overcast, but no strong winds.

As for fitness, it's vitally important on tour. Both mental fitness and physical fitness. You figure the average golf course is 7,000 yards on a direct line through the hole from the tee box to the center of the green. These tour players are walking AT LEAST 4 miles/day. They are doing that 2-4 times/week. A guy like Tiger who doesn't miss many cuts usually walks 16 miles minimum in a 4 day span. He is then given 3 days off and has to go do it all over again. Match play can be even more brutal as the semis in the WGC Accenture Match Play Championship consisted of 36 hole days. Do that for 33 weeks straight and let me know how you feel.

That's the physical fitness. Mental comes from planning and pressure. Planning on the plane trip to the course, planning in your practice rounds, planning at night in your bed, planning each and every shot during the tournament. It wears on you, especially if you have a bad round.

Pressure is self explanatory.

I'm going to end this post with a quote from Tiger Woods. He was asked what happens when baby Sam cries at home. He said: "Well I go into her room, pick her up, take her into the exercise room, get on the leg press and 600 reps later she's fast asleep." He didn't laugh.