Trying to Coin a Phrase for Part of the D-Plane

[3Dplane]

CP (club path) shift is a phenomenon in which the swing direction and the club path at impact shift when the attack angle is not zero. The amount of deviation is follows.

For example, if the attack angle is -5 degrees and the swing plane is 60 degrees, it will be about 3 degrees in to out. This 3 degree angle is equivalent to 5 yards off at 100 yards. What this means is that as long as you hit with a down blow, if the swing direction is straight (parallel to the target direction), the club path at impact will be in to out, so you cannot hit a straight ball with the straight swing direction.

In other words, [Can't hit a ball straight with a straight swing]

If the attack angle is -5 degrees, it is impossible to hit straight ball to the target direction unless the swing direction is turned to the left by about 3 degrees. This 3 degrees mean that about 5 yards shifts at 100 yards, about 8 yards shifts at 150 yards, and about 10 yards shifts at 200 yards. If you align this line with an alignment stick and address it, you’ll feel horribly pointing to the left of the target. That’s why you can’t straighten the club path unless you turn the swing direction to the left. Of course, even if the club path is facing to the right, you can aim at the target with a draw ball by closing the face angle, but it is not easy to curve the ball and aim at the target as described later.

When hitting the upper blow with a driver, on the contrary, the club path at impact will 

not be straight in the target direction unless the swing direction is turned to the right. For example, if the upper blow is 2 degrees and the swing plane is 50 degrees, the deviation of the club path will be about 2 degrees to the left. 2 degrees means that you’ll be off to the left by about 8 yards at 250 yards away. If you don’t turn to the right that much, the club path will not be straight. When you actually address it, you will feel that it is facing way to far right than you imagined.

 

It should be noted that when hitting a down blow, the club head is not outside the target line before the impact, and the club head at the time of impact is the outermost. This is because the impact is when the club head is farthest from the body with the swing direction facing to the left. (See Fig. below) Similarly, in the case of upper blow, the club head does not go outside the target line after impact. (See Fig. above)

 

[iacas]

This is just the D-Plane. So, we've understood this since at least the 90s if not earlier.

It is possible to hit the ball straight, too: it just might be a push (you could aim left as a righty) or a pull (aim right). There's no rule that you have to set up and swing parallel to the target line for the baseline of your swing (your HSP).

[3Dplane]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is just the D-Plane. So, we've understood this since at least the 90s if not earlier.

It is possible to hit the ball straight, too: it just might be a push (you could aim left as a righty) or a pull (aim right). There's no rule that you have to set up and swing parallel to the target line for the baseline of your swing (your HSP).

CP shift was not discribed in the D-Plane theory. Jorgensen did not mention even attack angle. 

To hit the ball straight, Face to path must be zero. (If hit at the sweet spot of the club face)  So if we aim to a target with straight ball with non zero atttack angle, swing direction must be right or left to the target line along with the attack angle. 

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

CP shift was not discribed in the D-Plane theory. Jorgensen did not mention even attack angle.

It is, because it's the direction of the clubhead at impact, which definitely is, as it forms the bottom of the D-Plane vectors.

And even if he didn't use the words "Angle of Attack" (in part because that's just the vertical angle, not any lateral movement), we've understood down = out relative to HSP, and up = in relative to HSP.

15 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

To hit the ball straight, Face to path must be zero.

Yes, so both could be 5° right or left. Or 3.75°, or 8.1°.

15 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

So if we aim to a target with straight ball with non zero atttack angle, swing direction must be right or left to the target line along with the attack angle.

We aren't constrained to doing that.

Let's start over: what's the point in sharing what I consider to be over 20-year-old info?

And also… players don't necessarily orient their swing direction (HSP) toward the target. Some players shift that right or left.

[klineka]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Let's start over: what's the point in sharing what I consider to be over 20-year-old info?

This was my thought too when I read the original post.

Is there a specific point you are trying to make? Keeping in mind of course the number of amateurs who have access to launch monitors to measure the kind of data you're referring to is quite small relative to the number of people who actually play golf.

[3Dplane]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

This was my thought too when I read the original post.

Is there a specific point you are trying to make? Keeping in mind of course the number of amateurs who have access to launch monitors to measure the kind of data you're referring to is quite small relative to the number of people who actually play golf.

This is well known by golf instructors or specialints. but it is not common that it is mentioned dureing golf lessons. It may be told at the same time of the advise that ball must hit down blow at iron shots. But because it has no name. it is not be told most of the case. So it is convenient it has a name. CP shift was named by one if the golf instructor, not myself.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, 3Dplane said:

This is well known by golf instructors or specialints. but it is not common that it is mentioned dureing golf lessons. It may be told at the same time of the advise that ball must hit down blow at iron shots. But because it has no name. it is not be told most of the case. So it is convenient it has a name. CP shift was named by one if the golf instructor, not myself.

I've known it since I started teaching and I don't mention it more than about 1% of the time. It's generally unnecessary info, and it's really rare that the best way to change the ball flight is by changing the AoA.

[Ty_Webb]

I spent a long portion of my golfing life not getting lessons. During that time I developed what can only be described as a somewhat out to in swing path. Because I'm not entirely awful, I had, I think through trial and error, come to a point where my outside in path was offset by getting quite a steep angle of attack. I finally went and got a lesson from someone with a flightscope (it was quite cutting edge at the time) and found out that with a 7 iron I was 11* downward AoA and could hit basically functional shots with that, although that's obviously not ideal. With the help of said coach, I was able to fix the path with a couple of adjustments to a much straighter pattern. Suddenly I could feel that I didn't need to hit so down on it anymore and on day two of my lesson, I was about 4* down AoA. My AoA was not something that was focused on in the slightest. It fixed itself once the cause of it was fixed. 

Erik - I'm not a coach and my swing knowledge is sub par (not in the golf sense), but it makes total sense to me that AoA is not something that you would start on except in a pretty unusual case. I could easily see that you could have someone come on the lesson tee who needs their AoA to change, but for that to be the actual underlying issue would be quite a surprise. Similar to early extension. Sure it's probably not desirable, but it's almost certainly not the underlying issue.

[3Dplane]

I think this is essential information for juniors aiming to become competitive golfers.　Therefore, I think it is necessary to give it a name.　It's very strange that something so important doesn't have a name.

[klineka]

25 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

I think this is essential information for juniors aiming to become competitive golfers.

"Essential information"?? C'mon man be realistic here... Good luck getting a 7-10 year old to understand/care about this. 

If this was essential information it would be preached about and talked about endlessly by coaches across the globe. It's not. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

Therefore, I think it is necessary to give it a name.　It's very strange that something so important doesn't have a name.

Doesn't it already have a name though, D-Plane?

If you think it's not the same as D-Plane, then please explain the difference between "CP Shift" and D-Plane.

 

 

[iacas]

32 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

I think this is essential information for juniors aiming to become competitive golfers. Therefore, I think it is necessary to give it a name. It's very strange that something so important doesn't have a name.

I disagree with you.

Again, you don't fix ball flight (curve) by changing your AoA. You shift the baseline/"swing direction"/"HSP."

[3Dplane]

32 minutes ago, klineka said:

"Essential information"?? C'mon man be realistic here... Good luck getting a 7-10 year old to understand/care about this. 

If this was essential information it would be preached about and talked about endlessly by coaches across the globe. It's not. 

 

 

Doesn't it already have a name though, D-Plane?

If you think it's not the same as D-Plane, then please explain the difference between "CP Shift" and D-Plane.

 

 

D-plane is a plane consisting of club path and face angle, and the ball spin axis is approximately perpendicular to this plane and represents the direction of the ball curves. On the other hand, CPshift refers to the deviation of Club Path from Swing Direction when AoA is not zero. The amount of deviation can be calculated from AoA and Swing Plane. D-plane and CP Shift are different concepts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uelExstv-no&t=14s

 

 

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree with you.

Again, you don't fix ball flight (curve) by changing your AoA. You shift the baseline/"swing direction"/"HSP."

If AoA is not Zero, ball launch is not same as swing direction. So we need to chnage swing direction in order to match the launch angle to the target line.  To fix ball flight (curve) by changing the AoA is very diffucult, almost impossible.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

D-plane is a plane consisting of club path and face angle

Again… we know what the D-Plane is, and while you might be correct on the most basic level that it's the plane between the two vectors (the club face normal and the 3D path of the clubhead), when we say "that's covered by the D-Plane" what we mean is that the path of the club is 3D in nature and how it relates to the baseline/HSP/swing direction, and the arc on which the club is swung, is covered by this.

I mean, this video is over 12 years old:

Very much the 3D path of the club was talked about a dozen years ago as part of the whole "D-Plane" conversation.

9 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

If AoA is not Zero, ball launch is not same as swing direction.

I mean, it could be. Swing direction 2° right, hitting 3° down… you could orient the clubface in such a way that the ball launches 2° right.

9 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

So we need to change swing direction…

Right! Which is generally not changed by altering the AoA (and "swing direction" is the baseline to the plane, or the HSP, not the 3D direction of the club's path at impact).

9 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

To fix ball flight (curve) by changing the AoA is very diffucult, almost impossible.

Which is what I keep saying, and why this aspect of the D-Plane isn't all that important:

On 1/11/2024 at 7:56 AM, iacas said:

… and it's really rare that the best way to change the ball flight is by changing the AoA.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Again, you don't fix ball flight (curve) by changing your AoA. You shift the baseline/"swing direction"/"HSP."

[klineka]

@3Dplane Regardless of if you are describing a new concept or not, I'm still curious as to why you think this is essential information for a 7 year old to know in order to become a competitive golfer?

[3Dplane]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

Again… we know what the D-Plane is, and while you might be correct on the most basic level that it's the plane between the two vectors (the club face normal and the 3D path of the clubhead), when we say "that's covered by the D-Plane" what we mean is that the path of the club is 3D in nature and how it relates to the baseline/HSP/swing direction, and the arc on which the club is swung, is covered by this.

I mean, this video is over 12 years old:

Very much the 3D path of the club was talked about a dozen years ago as part of the whole "D-Plane" conversation.

I mean, it could be. Swing direction 2° right, hitting 3° down… you could orient the clubface in such a way that the ball launches 2° right.

Right! Which is generally not changed by altering the AoA (and "swing direction" is the baseline to the plane, or the HSP, not the 3D direction of the club's path at impact).

Which is what I keep saying, and why this aspect of the D-Plane isn't all that important:

Thank you very muc. Now I understand that D-plane covers that  the path of the club is 3D in nature and how it relates to the baseline/HSP/swing direction, and the arc on which the club is swung. So the formula between Club Path(horizontal) and AoA is also covered by D-plane, right? 

[3Dplane]

21 hours ago, klineka said:

@3Dplane Regardless of if you are describing a new concept or not, I'm still curious as to why you think this is essential information for a 7 year old to know in order to become a competitive golfer?

When he will use TranckMan or Flight Simulators, he should understand that Why Club Path is not same as Swing Direction.  And he need to know how he can correct Club Path to the Target Line.  The instructors may teach students that they need to hit down blow(negative AoA) when the ball lies on the ground(not tee up). I think it is better the instructors also teach CP shift at that time.

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

So the formula between Club Path(horizontal) and AoA is also covered by D-plane, right? 

It's just basic trigonometry. You can also just kinda learn that with the driver it's roughly 1:1, and as you get to wedges it moves closer to 2:1. Nobody swings a club on a 30° plane or an 80° plane (not when they're worried about the D-Plane), so the majority of your chart is outside the range we care about.

28 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

When he will use TranckMan or Flight Simulators, he should understand that Why Club Path is not same as Swing Direction.

I don't necessarily agree that they need to know that. They just need to know what to look at - club path. Or if they do want to tweak their AoA, to look at that. They're not the same thing - one is called "swing direction" and the more down you hit, the more "out" the true path is relative to the swing direction. That's as complicated as it needs to be.

28 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

And he need to know how he can correct Club Path to the Target Line.

Which has next to nothing to do with any of this.

28 minutes ago, 3Dplane said:

The instructors may teach students that they need to hit down blow (negative AoA) when the ball lies on the ground (not tee up). I think it is better the instructors also teach CP shift at that time.

I'm a great instructor, and I don't see the value in teaching this. I've said now several times that you almost never find yourself in a situation that you'd change the AoA to change the path.

It's good to "know" in the back of your mind as an instructor, but… its practical use is limited because of the sentence I just wrote in the last paragraph.

[3Dplane]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

It's just basic trigonometry. You can also just kinda learn that with the driver it's roughly 1:1, and as you get to wedges it moves closer to 2:1. Nobody swings a club on a 30° plane or an 80° plane (not when they're worried about the D-Plane), so the majority of your chart is outside the range we care about.

I don't necessarily agree that they need to know that. They just need to know what to look at - club path. Or if they do want to tweak their AoA, to look at that. They're not the same thing - one is called "swing direction" and the more down you hit, the more "out" the true path is relative to the swing direction. That's as complicated as it needs to be.

Which has next to nothing to do with any of this.

I'm a great instructor, and I don't see the value in teaching this. I've said now several times that you almost never find yourself in a situation that you'd change the AoA to change the path.

It's good to "know" in the back of your mind as an instructor, but… its practical use is limited because of the sentence I just wrote in the last paragraph.

I think students need to know that the more down they hit, the more "out" their actual path is relative to the swing direction. We also need to explain why that is the case. In such cases, I think it would be easier to teach if the name CP Shift was defined.