Dr. Raymond Prior and Block vs. Random Practice (The Spin Axis Podcast)

[iacas]

038: Dr. Raymond Prior (Golf Beneath the Surface) and the Psychology of Practice | The Spin Axis Podcast - Golf Coaches Discuss Instruction Modern Techniques and Technology

I think we did the latter part, but in the show we did talk briefly about block vs. random practice. I asked him on the show about how someone might appear to be doing block practice (rehearsing the same move with a 7I or something, hitting the same type of shot on repeat), and he said that would likely be what he and others in his field would call Variable Practice.

---

Now, this is big, because I think block practice gets a bad rap.

In the post-show conversation (not recorded), I asked more questions about this. Basically, block practice to people in this field is literally doing the same exact thing over and over again. Given that definition, and except for the guy literally just hitting drivers on the range, I don't think anyone really ever does block practice.

It casts serious shade on the studies that show block practice is horrible and random practice is the only good way to go. If just altering what you're doing a little, by exaggerating more or less, or doing "the thing" a little more or less, or altering the speed a little is enough to make it "variable" practice, then… do that. It'll look like block practice to others, or at least what they think is block practice, but apparently… it's not!

So, anyway, I'd like to have a discussion on this stuff. The value (or lack of value) in how we practice to ingrain movement improvements.

[dennyjones]

I don't practice much with my golf clubs this time of the year.  I do spend at least 2 hours each night with my keyboard practicing different things, like scales,  arpeggios, and other songs I'm trying to learn.   Block practice is crucial to a real learning experience.   I've spent 10 minutes doing the same 6-key arpeggio, multiple minutes just practicing a difficult chord change, and lots of time listening to my practice, repeating the difficult sections.   (My keyboard records all of my practice).

If I find that I'm not progressing that night as expected, the random practice starts, and it helps restart my brain.  I may decide to return to the difficult section later, but I usually turn to a different song, scale, or decide to quit for the night.  There is definitely a need for both block and random practice, and I'm sure it's the same with golf.

[saevel25]

Maybe it's not just a binary situation. 

Let's say a QB is practicing their 3 step drop. They need the reps to get the pattern down, but they also might need the feedback to make sure they are doing it right. It just sounds like the random practice introduces more feedback because there is more instances for a person to register that error.

I also think that they are taking block practice, like memorizing and trying to project that to athletic practice. I think there is a big difference. It seems all the examples for block practice is something from academics versus athletics.

 

[Ty_Webb]

When I go to the range, there are a couple of things I might be trying to achieve. One is just keeping myself moving, so I don't get too far out of whack. The other is often seeing where the ball is going when I just make a swing without any thought and then trying to adjust that, so I might be working on my strike or clubface control and what not. I would have always considered that as block practice if I'm using one club and just hitting balls to the same target. I'll switch clubs and types of shots from time to time so I don't get too repetitive, but still not sure I'd call that random practice.

To my mind, random practice would be hit a driver between those two posts, then hit a 7 iron to that green, then hit a 50 yard wedge shot, then a three wood off the ground, then a low 6 iron, then a big fade with driver around x target. That kind of thing. Sounds like that's wrong though? 

That and if I'm hitting 7 irons over and over to the same target, it might well not look like they're all going at the same target. 😂 So my practice may look fairly random even if I'm trying to repeat the same shot over and over.

[iacas]

I found it odd that both Drs. (Raymond Prior and Greg Rose) in their separate videos gave the same exact math problem (23 x 12), and both made the point of comparing block practice to solving the same exact math problem (23 x 12) over and over again.

But I've made the point that when you are learning your multiplication tables… you do a bunch of similar multiplications over and over again. You do 7 x 8, then 9 x 4, then 3 x 5, then 2 x 6, and so on.

So, I think when golf instructors talk about block practice, they're really not understanding what it actually is, and they're assuming that someone trying to kinda do the same thing is block practice, but when Dr. Raymond Prior said on my podcast that what I was describing was variable practice… then… well, that changes things. It changes the results of everything you've heard about how "block" practice is bad (or ineffective).

[saevel25]

Yea, I think the first thing is to define block, variable, and random practice with regards to golf. 

The easiest one might be in practicing distance control for putting. Block practice would be just hitting 50 putts from 5 feet, then 50 putts from 10 ft then 50 putts from 15 ft. While random practice would having a different distance putt for every putt. 

In terms of learning a new motor pattern, like let's say you want to make sure the clubhead goes outside the hands in the backswing. I am not sure how to structure random practice. Maybe block practice is just making the same 100 movements over and over again. I don't get how a random practice is structured for something like learning a new motor pattern for the golf swing. 

Like, if a NFL QB needs to work on their throw. They want to get the ball higher above the shoulder. How would random practice be structured? Would they just need someone there to say, yes or no for feedback? That way the QB can go through an assortment of passing drills and throws trying to get the wright throwing motion? 

For me, how do you structure the feedback and be time effective. Let's say you want to work on the club path in the backswing. You go out to the course to get some random practice. Do you need to set up the camera at each spot, check after each shot to make it random? 

I know that feedback is also a HUGE part of learning. I could say, I went to the golf course and worked on my swing. If I made 40 golf swings on the course, what if none of them were good reps because I couldn't get any feedback? What if I regressed? 

[GolfLug]

IMHO, block practice is good. Any new motor pattern or a 'move' has to be committed to muscle memory and be reproducable at command without conscious thought as the final goal. I don't see how this is that much different than learning how to drive a car, or let's say how to handle the steering for example. One must do it enough times and then also do it in different situations to commit to all layers of brain - judgment of demand, decision making, judgment of response and finally execution. Unless each layer is familiar of each of their role in the specific motor move, it is not truly learned and you will simply fall back to the original pattern.

I think the random practice is simply committing the learned pattern to different scenarios or intervals of time to replicate in the real world (actual rounds). It breeds further familiarity learned from block practice.

Steer the car a hundred times to learn the move (block) and then drive the car all over town to make it real world (random) to a level of maturity. I don't see how block and random have to be in conflict with each other.

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I don't see how this is that much different than learning how to drive a car, or let's say how to handle the steering for example. One must do it enough times and then also do it in different situations to commit to all layers of brain - judgment of demand, decision making, judgment of response and finally execution.

In driving a car you have all sorts of random or variable parts, though. Different speeds, corners, conditions, size of turns… even different cars and sizes, different traffic and laws (lights, signs, etc.).

I don't think I've seen anyone doing "block practice" to practice the same exact turn 100 times, then trying it in the real world.

[GolfLug]

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don't think I've seen anyone doing "block practice" to practice the same exact turn 100 times

If that's what defines block practice, then no, I haven't either. But the point is there is limited or no variable repetition required to learn steering/car turn relationship. I certainly have seen people repeat a bar '100 times' in learning a piano piece until they hit the notes in the right sequence and the right timing/tempo, before they move to the next bar and so on and forth. 

I listened to Dr. R's podcast twice now, to make sure I'm not misunderstanding. It seems block practice is being equated to mindless hitting by some and deservedly gets a bad rap if so. I like what he said but think people can do 'random' just as mindlessly.

I am preaching to the choir here but from my perspective this boils down to the being specific and mindful in your practice. Hitting 50 straight seven irons has it's value if it is done to specifically learn a hand position before delivery (random eg.), since the feel they are trying to internalize is universal regardless of the club. Eventually they need to vary the club to replicate the same feeling to add more variables.     

[iacas]

6 hours ago, GolfLug said:

If that's what defines block practice, then no, I haven't either.

That post confused me. It's kinda been the whole topic here. Literally doing the same exact thing over and over again = block practice.

[GolfLug]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

That post confused me. It's kinda been the whole topic here. Literally doing the same exact thing over and over again = block practice.

In my original post, the 'same thing' in relation to block practice of = 'how to handle the steering' not 'exact same turn 100 times'. There's a meaningful difference. Hope that clears the confusion.

In any case I made a larger point in favor of block practice, ya know, repetition of a specific piece if done mindfully as a good thing, which I think is very much on topic. Matt's post ask a good question about learning a new motor pattern. Like how would you randomize 'make sure the club head goes outside the hands in the bs'? I would think it is literally the same move a 100 times = block practice right? 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

In my original post, the 'same thing' in relation to block practice of = 'how to handle the steering' not 'exact same turn 100 times'. There's a meaningful difference. Hope that clears the confusion.

It's not meaningful, because driving = playing golf. When practicing "turns," that isn't what block practice is, and that's just one aspect of practicing driving. Block practice of turns would be practicing the same turn repeatedly in the same way.

4 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Like how would you randomize 'make sure the club head goes outside the hands in the bs'? I would think it is literally the same move a 100 times = block practice right? 

We'll talk sometime, Vishal, because I'm not sure I'm reading you right or vice versa.

Block vs. Random practice "studies" are cited all the time, but it turns out that block practice isn't what many actually think it is, per Dr. Raymond Prior himself. I think it's a much narrower thing than what many people think it is.

[Ty_Webb]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

It's not meaningful, because driving = playing golf. When practicing "turns," that isn't what block practice is, and that's just one aspect of practicing driving. Block practice of turns would be practicing the same turn repeatedly in the same way.

We'll talk sometime, Vishal, because I'm not sure I'm reading you right or vice versa.

Block vs. Random practice "studies" are cited all the time, but it turns out that block practice isn't what many actually think it is, per Dr. Raymond Prior himself. I think it's a much narrower thing than what many people think it is.

Quick question since I feel like maybe I'm mixed up too. If I go to the driving range with a 7 iron and aim at a flag at about the right distance, hit it 10 yards left of it, so on the next one I try to keep the face slightly more open say, this time it goes straight, but I hit the mat a bit before the ball, so this time I try to get a fraction more forward and hit it clean this time, but it goes a bit right, so the next one I try to get a fraction more forward and go back to my first release. Is this block practice since I'm hitting the same club to the same target each time, or is this variable practice since I'm trying to do something slightly different with each swing?

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Quick question since I feel like maybe I'm mixed up too. If I go to the driving range with a 7 iron and aim at a flag at about the right distance, hit it 10 yards left of it, so on the next one I try to keep the face slightly more open say, this time it goes straight, but I hit the mat a bit before the ball, so this time I try to get a fraction more forward and hit it clean this time, but it goes a bit right, so the next one I try to get a fraction more forward and go back to my first release. Is this block practice since I'm hitting the same club to the same target each time, or is this variable practice since I'm trying to do something slightly different with each swing?

I think I asked the same question on the podcast, no?

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

Is this block practice since I'm hitting the same club to the same target each time, or is this variable practice since I'm trying to do something slightly different with each swing?

I think block practice is for very specific tasks. Any tasks that start to bleed into other variables it becomes variable practice. 

In your case, you sound like you are just trying to strike the ball solid and start it on your start line. This might go into variable practice because you are constantly adjusting based on many parameters. Block practice might be more like; I want the club to move this specific way from A1 to A3. I will do that 200 times in a row. 

Random practice would be the closest to a "live" swing as you can get and still get feedback. You don't hit the same club twice in a row. You hit to different targets. You hit different shot shapes. I think it has to be still tied back to a specific thing you are working on. Let's say you are working on weight shift in the backswing and downswing. The amount of weight shift may not be the same pending the shot. You might have uneven lies. Having all these more variables and still trying to get the weight shift the way you want will translate better to the course since the course isn't a perfect driving range mat. 

[Ty_Webb]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I think I asked the same question on the podcast, no?

Very possibly - haven't listened to it in a couple of weeks. I'll give it another run through

[iacas]

[Ty_Webb]

It seems quite likely to me that I've never done block practice other than perhaps on a putting green doing one of those hole 50 3 footers in a row type of things.