Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 6494 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted
In my match Monday the guy I was playing made a call of unplayable and replayed for the original spot. Now to set this up for you. 18th hole dog leg left with woods on the left. ball is on the tee and he pulls shot into the woods, ball hits a tree and bounces out fifty yards behind the tees and twenty yards left of the tee box. He called it unplayable and said it's his option to replay the shot from the original spot. rule 20.5 (from the tee),even though the original spot is actually closer to the hole. Just wanted to know if that is the correct call even if the ball is being moved closer to the hole? Had no outcome to the match as I had to give five shots and beat him by ten shots.

R7 9.5 S Shaft
560 R7 quad R shaft
RAC LT irons
Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum


  • Administrator
Posted

Perfectly legit. Good on that guy for knowing the rules - he proved that knowing the rules can benefit you, too.

If the rules cared about being closer to the hole in such a case, they'd say so. Instead, it's pretty clear: the player may deem his ball unplayable (so long as it's not in a hazard, OB, etc.) and may elect to re-play the shot.

And I think you meant it had no effect on the outcome.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
Thanks for the reply.

R7 9.5 S Shaft
560 R7 quad R shaft
RAC LT irons
Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum


Posted
what does calling it unplayable mean? ive actually never heard of it.

Driver: Taylormade R11 set to 8*
3 Wood: R9 15* Motore Stiff
Hybrid: 19° 909 H Voodoo
Irons: 4-PW AP2 Project X 5.5
52*, 60* Vokey SM Chrome

Putter: Odyssey XG #7

Ball: Titleist Pro V1x


Posted
what does calling it unplayable mean? ive actually never heard of it.

It means pretty much what it says.

You can declare your ball unplayable if there's no advantage in trying to hit it or you can't hit it at all. I won't explain much more because Iacas pretty much said it already.

Best, Mike Elzey

In my bag:
Driver: Cleveland Launcher 10.5 stiff
Woods: Ping ISI 3 and 5 - metal stiffIrons: Ping ISI 4-GW - metal stiffSand Wedges: 1987 Staff, 1987 R-90Putter: two ball - black bladeBall: NXT Tour"I think what I said is right but maybe not.""If you know so much, why are you...


Posted
what does calling it unplayable mean? ive actually never heard of it.

To give an example,

If your ball lands to rest near a fence and is dead right on the fence, that would be an unplayable.
In My Bag

Driver: Sasquatch 460 9.5°
3 Wood: Laser 3 Wood 15°
5 Wood: r7 19° (Stiff)Irons: S58 Irons 4-PW Orange DotWedge: Harmonized 60°Wedge: Z TP 54°Putter: Tiffany 34"Balls: Pro V1 Shoes: Adidas Tour 360 IIThe Meadows Golf Coursewww.themeadowsgc.comAge: 16

Posted
You can take an unplayable at anytime. Its a one stroke penalty so you should not take it unless you are sure that you cannot play the ball. If your stance, swing or anything else is interfered with enough to the point that you feel that you are unable to play the ball is when you should take an unplayable and move the ball to within the specifications set by the rules.

Whats in my Warbird Hot Bad:

Driver: 907D1 9.5 - 65-S Aldila VS Proto --- FT-IQ coming soon?
2 Hybrid: Rescue mid-TP 16 deg
3 Hybrid: Rescue TP - HC Tour Only Model 19 deg - DG X-1004-PW: 695CB Irons - Project X 6.0Wedges Vokey SM58, Vokey SM54, Vokey 250Putter Futura PhantomWhere I WorkMy...


Posted
Gary McCord gave a good example of this in a rules segment during coverage of a PGA Tour Event. For the purposes of this segment, he hit a three foot putt clear off the green and down a steep slope; the ball nestled some 50 yards from the hole. McCord noted that he had the right to take an unplayable lie and replay his short putt (which he made). If the first putt which he knocked off the green was stroke 1, McCord made a 3 with his clever unplayable; he would have had to get up and down from 50 yards to equal this same 3. This is obviously an extreme example, but it shows that one can take an unplayable and replay one's ball even if it is closer to the hole.

What's in my bag:

Driver: R7 CGB Max, regular shaft
4-wood and 7-wood: :: Launcher, regular shafts
4-iron to A-wedge: X-20, regular steel shafts56- and 60-degree wedge: forged, stiff steel shafts, vintage finish, MD groovesPutter: Circa '62, No. 7, steel shaft, 35"Ball: NXT Tour or ProV1(x)...


Posted
In the OP's scenario, this was certainly legal as many of pointed out; however, was it the right call? We may need more info. Did he have a shot to get back into the fairway? If so, then my opinion is that is almost always the best option rather than taking an unplayable and penalty stroke. The question to ask is will you be in better position after two shots from the current lie or after re-hitting from the original spot. You will be laying three either way. Also, was he able to tee it up when replaying from the original spot?

Driver: Taylor Made RBZ HL
3-Wood:Taylor Made RBZ 16*
Hybrid: Taylor Made RBZ 19* and 22*
4i-PW: Titleist AP 1
Wedges: Vokey 54*, 60* Putter: Cameron Squareback 2 Ball: Pro V1x


Posted
Also, was he able to tee it up when replaying from the original spot?

Yes, any ball replayed from the teeing ground may be teed.


Posted
To give an example,

That sounds like an immovable obstruction unless it's also the course boundary.

If it's just a decorative fence (around a tee box, flowers or something like a pump), drop 1 club no nearer the hole. No penalty. If the fence is the boundary, you wouldn't have an unplayable lie. You would be OB. In that case, grab a ball and head back to the tee if you did not have the foresight to hit a provisional.

Best, Mike Elzey

In my bag:
Driver: Cleveland Launcher 10.5 stiff
Woods: Ping ISI 3 and 5 - metal stiffIrons: Ping ISI 4-GW - metal stiffSand Wedges: 1987 Staff, 1987 R-90Putter: two ball - black bladeBall: NXT Tour"I think what I said is right but maybe not.""If you know so much, why are you...


Posted
If it's just a decorative fence (around a tee box, flowers or something like a pump), drop 1 club no nearer the hole. No penalty.

Specifically, one club length from the nearest point of relief (as opposed to one club length from where the ball lies).

If the fence is the boundary, you wouldn't have an unplayable lie. You would be OB.

Well, only if it's on the other side of the fence. If it's on the inside - and therefore in bounds - you can certainly call an unplayable.

In that case, grab a ball and head back to the tee if you did not have the foresight to hit a provisional.

Actually, given the pace of play issues today, if it isn't a tournament situation please drop in the general area and add 2 strokes. No, it's not legal but it's a common practice and the groups behind you will really appreciate it.

- Bill

Bill


Posted

Hi, Bill. Thanks for writing.

Specifically, one club length from the nearest point of relief (as opposed to one club length from where the ball lies).

I didn't feel like writing the hole procedure for taking free relief but thanks for elaborating.
Well, only if it's on the other side of the fence. If it's on the inside - and therefore in bounds - you can certainly call an unplayable.

Hell, yes. I declare my ball unplayable often enough to know. The question was whether or not a ball "dead against" a fence constitutes an unplayable lie. I wanted to clarify his options. I guess that wasn't really clear. The purpose of the fence had a lot to do with his options. This is probably too much information but I'll bore you all with it anyway. The boundary fence (or stake) itself is out of bounds unless changed by local rule. (I hate doing this but here are my "cites" anyway) http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...ml#OutofBounds http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo....html#33-2a/15
Actually, given the pace of play issues today, if it isn't a tournament situation please drop in the general area and add 2 strokes. No, it's not legal but it's a common practice and the groups behind you will really appreciate it.

That practice makes me crazier than I already am. I don't remember a round of golf without some foursome bets going on since I was in high school. I'm probably also playing in a pot game. I'm not going to get that ruling from the guys I play and I'm not going to give it to anyone either - a player has to defend the field against rules violations. Even better than "drop one where it should be" is what I like to call "Hand Grenade" golf : A putt is good if the shrapnel from a grenade exploding at the hole would reach the ball. Yep, those people run up my butt all day too. Man up, golfers.
- Bill

Well, we got a little bit off-topic there but it was a good excuse for me to vent about how the game is played. IMHO, people who expect to play a weekend round in 4 hours could maybe adjust their expectations. IMHO, marriage causes many people to perceive that there is a pace of play problem. "We teed off at 6:55 in the morning and got around in three hours and fifteen minutes!" "What did you shoot?" "The important thing is my wife didn't shoot me."

Best, Mike Elzey

In my bag:
Driver: Cleveland Launcher 10.5 stiff
Woods: Ping ISI 3 and 5 - metal stiffIrons: Ping ISI 4-GW - metal stiffSand Wedges: 1987 Staff, 1987 R-90Putter: two ball - black bladeBall: NXT Tour"I think what I said is right but maybe not.""If you know so much, why are you...


Posted
You can take an unplayable at anytime. Its a one stroke penalty so you should not take it unless you are sure that you cannot play the ball. If your stance, swing or anything else is interfered with enough to the point that you feel that you are unable to play the ball is when you should take an unplayable and move the ball to within the specifications set by the rules.

It's stroke and distance, right? Gotta play from where you originally hit from.

In my bag:
Launcher 460 9 degree aldila stiff shaft
13 degree fairway wood aldila stiff shaft
Halo 2i hybrid stiff shaft
CG4 irons 4 thru PW regular graphite shaftsCG10 wedges 52,56, and 60 degreeOdyssey Putter #4


Posted
I've been playing in a league this season, which is my first regular exposure to a competitive situation in a very long time (since high school). I'm appalled at how many people don't know the unplayable lie rule, and the options that go with it.

Here they are (all under 1 stroke penalty):

1) Drop within 2 club lengths, not nearer the hole. Note that you can measure with any club in your bag; you can get two driver-lengths even if your next shot will be played with a sand wedge.

2) Replay the shot from the original location, effectively the stroke-and-distance penalty.

3) Drop as far back as you want along a line from the flag through the ball, again, not nearer the hole. This is particularly useful when you're under a tree with a clearing behind you. Go back 10 yards, 15, whatever it takes that you can get a clear shot over the trees. Or drop at your favorite yardage.

#3 seems to be the most misunderstood: I've heard at least two people insist that they can drop along a line back to the tee.

Brad Eisenhauer

In my bag:
Driver: Callaway Hyper X 10° | Fairway Wood: GigaGolf PowerMax GX920 3W (15°) | Hybrid: GigaGolf PowerMax GX920 3 (20°)
Irons: Mizuno MX-25 4-PW | Wedges: GigaGolf Tradition SGS Black 52°, 56°, 60° | Putter: GigaGolf CenterCut Classic SP3

Ball: Titleist ProV1x or Bridgestone B330S


Posted
It's stroke and distance, right? Gotta play from where you originally hit from.

There are two other options for an unplayable lie (bunkers don't count):

1. Under penalty of one shot, drop the ball within (no nearer the hole)two club lengths of where the ball lies. (So, if you put it at the base of a pine tree cut about 6 inches off the ground with a radius of 12 feet that one won't work.) 2. Under penalty of one stroke, drop the ball on an extension of the line that extends from the hole through where the ball lies. You can't do that and be nearer the hole. You can go as far back as you like. (However, that line may run right into a 10 acre lake behind the tree you were under so that wouldn't work either.) Stroke and distance is always there for when the first two won't help.

Best, Mike Elzey

In my bag:
Driver: Cleveland Launcher 10.5 stiff
Woods: Ping ISI 3 and 5 - metal stiffIrons: Ping ISI 4-GW - metal stiffSand Wedges: 1987 Staff, 1987 R-90Putter: two ball - black bladeBall: NXT Tour"I think what I said is right but maybe not.""If you know so much, why are you...


Posted
There are two other options for an unplayable lie (bunkers don't count)

They most certainly do. You can declare your ball unplayable anywhere on the course except in a water hazard. All 3 options as listed in beisenhauer's post can be used. The only difference when in a bunker is, if you use any option other than replaying from the original spot, the drop must be kept in the bunker.

Bill


Posted
It's stroke and distance, right? Gotta play from where you originally hit from.

They most certainly do. You can declare your ball unplayable anywhere on the course except in a water hazard. All 3 options as listed in beisenhauer's post can be used. The only difference when in a bunker is, if you use any option other than replaying from the original spot, the drop must be kept in the bunker.

that's exactly why I said bunkers don't count - the rule is applied differently and I chose not to address that

beisenhauer's post was written while I was writing mine or I wouldn't have written mine

Best, Mike Elzey

In my bag:
Driver: Cleveland Launcher 10.5 stiff
Woods: Ping ISI 3 and 5 - metal stiffIrons: Ping ISI 4-GW - metal stiffSand Wedges: 1987 Staff, 1987 R-90Putter: two ball - black bladeBall: NXT Tour"I think what I said is right but maybe not.""If you know so much, why are you...


Note: This thread is 6494 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • (Article appeared in the March 15, 2026 edition of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, p. 1) Dense fog covers the closed driving range at Ruth Park Golf Course in University City on Feb. 19, 2026. After University City attempted to use leftover dirt from Market at Olive building project to improve the driving range, complications arose and closed the range. ‘Free dirt’ proves costly for Ruth Park driving range By Nassim Benchaabane | Post-Dispatch // Photos by Liz Rymarev UNIVERSITY CITY — The dirt was supposed to be a gift. Developers hoping to bring a Target store to Olive Boulevard needed a place to dump thousands of truckloads of excavated dirt. University City offered to take the dirt at its popular golf course's driving range, in hopes it would fix long-standing erosion and stormwater runoff problems. The project was supposed to take three months.  The driving range at Ruth Park is still closed today. It's in worse condition than before. And it's on track to cost University City nearly $900,000 in lost revenue and future repairs. “The ‘free dirt’ and golf course improvements turned out to be not so free,” Darin Girdler, the city's parks director at the time, wrote in an internal memo in August. Records show the project was launched without a contract between the developer and the city, with no written plan for finishing the range after the dirt was dumped and graded, and without clear terms spelling out consequences if the job wasn't done correctly. Instead, city emails show, as the dirt sat there for months, and the erosion and runoff issues got worse, neither developers nor city officials took charge and solved the problems. University City did not make anyone available for an interview to explain how things went wrong. Former city manager Gregory Rose, Target developer Larry Chapman and excavation company Kolb Grading did not respond to requests for comment. Golfers and residents, meanwhile, have grown frustrated. One recent day, Jim Chambers, 69, of Shrewsbury, wondered whether the city should have taken the dirt at all. Chambers said he has golfed at Ruth Park for 32 years and almost always saw the driving range packed with golfers.  The range would get muddy when it rained, and the cracks in the ground left behind would make it hard to retrieve the balls, Chambers said. But the range was still "nice," he said. "It was fine without the dirt," he said. "It’s all erosion now."  A promise to fix the range The nine-hole University City Golf Course, as it was known then, opened in 1931. It was designed by Robert Foulis, who built some of the St. Louis region's most popular golf courses. It was well-liked by both casual and experienced golfers for its small size, ease and beauty.  The driving range, which had space for 25 golfers to hit balls simultaneously, was added in 2008, in an attempt to generate more revenue at the course, which had been operating at a deficit for years. It worked. By 2019, the golf course was successful enough that the city parceled it out of the budget as an "enterprise fund," along with other revenue generators like public parking garages and the city's waste collection program. Annual revenue grew to more than $320,000 by July 2024. But the driving range was also starting to show signs of wear and tear. It sloped downhill from Groby Road toward a wooded area. The irrigation was poor; water pooled at the north end. Erosion caused cracks in the earth that made it impossible for machines to sweep up and retrieve the balls. The city attempted fixes over the years, including in late 2022, when it closed the range for several months to install pipes meant to help drain stormwater. But by 2024, the range was still closing every Wednesday morning so that workers could retrieve balls by hand from the cracks in the ground. Then, that summer, the city thought it found a fix. University City announced it had arranged for Chapman's company, Seneca CRE, to have Kolb move about 46,000 cubic yards of dirt to the golf course to build two more forward tees at the first hole, create a new practice green, level the driving range and add two more acres of grass tee space there. The dirt came from excavation at the construction site for the Market at Olive Project, a $211 million shopping plaza at Interstate 170 and Olive Boulevard that includes Costco, Chick-fil-A, and Target. It was the largest economic development project in University City history, received $70 million in tax incentives, pushed out dozens of longtime homeowners and businesses, and was projected to generate millions in sales tax revenues. In July 2024 about 200 trucks started hauling dirt from the shopping plaza to the golf course one mile down the road for about 28 days. The city promised to post monthly updates for the public.  It never did.   Eroded field section of driving range. 'Have you stopped work?' The city council never voted on the plan to take the dirt. City leaders, in response to a public records request, said they had no written agreement regarding the project. Instead, developers and officials said the dirt needed to be moved promptly in order to secure Target as a tenant at the Market at Olive, the city emails show. St. Louis County, while reviewing the plan to stockpile dirt at Ruth Park, asked the developers to check with the region's sewer agency, the Metropolitan Sewer District, for approval that the project wouldn't impact stormwater management or sewer drains near the range. Disagreement on drainage Chapman, the Seneca president, balked, arguing the dirt wouldn't change the way water flows on the driving range or create an impervious surface. In an email to officials including Rose, the city manager then, and County Executive Sam Page, he said if the work didn't start immediately, they'd have to pay $300,000 to move the dirt to St. Charles instead — or risk losing Target as a tenant. "All we’re trying to do is keep an important economic development project going forward and to help the City out by providing some desired fill material to their golf course," Chapman wrote in the July email. Rose wrote to the county asking it to issue the permit "as promptly as possible" because the work was "critical to economic development."  The next day MSD approved the project without requiring a formal application, based on a plan that had been submitted by engineering firm Stock and Associates, whom Seneca had hired. The plan the county approved called for stockpiling and grading dirt across roughly 3.8 acres of the driving range. But neither city staff nor the developers appeared to have a detailed plan for how things would proceed. Email records show Seneca, Kolb and city officials bouncing questions back and forth over how much dirt would be moved and when, when the golf course would need to close, if the appropriate county, state and MSD protections were in place, and who was responsible for grading the dirt, laying sod or seeds down and making other finishing touches.  In a late August email, Girdler, then the city parks chief, asked about the dirt sitting on the range.  "Have you stopped work at the Golf Course?" Girdler wrote to Seneca and Kolb. "I don’t think you have finished all of the grading, have you?" In September, at least one complaint to the city parks commission said the new dirt made the downhill slope from Groby Road worse, and was actually blocking the view of targets down the range. County inspectors found that the dirt had overrun tarp fencing meant to keep it from seeping downhill into sewer inlets, that dust was getting kicked up into the air, and that failing to reseed the dirt for months only worsened erosion across the range. And golfers were taking notice.  "In my humble opinion, our City Fathers made the mistake of believing the developers again," one resident, Steven Goldstein, wrote in an email to the city parks commission. "And the taxpayers will pay an excessive price for the 'once in a lifetime' gift of 'free dirt' at the driving range."  'Is there no way to hurry this up?' By spring of 2025, nothing had been resolved. Girdler told Seneca and Kolb that the dirt still needed to be graded again to match the original plans, that the drainage system needed to be fixed, and that the dirt needed to be seeded and irrigated. Chapman said Seneca had fulfilled its original agreement with University City, and gone above and beyond to grade the dirt a second time after golfers complained the range was too steep. He pushed the city to try to take ownership of the county land disturbance permit, which required the holder to maintain silt fencing and other stormwater protections, or hire a new contractor to take it over.  "I just need to let MSD know we are done with our portion of the work," Chapman wrote in an email to Rose in late June. In August, University City paid $71,000 to hire Navigate Solutions, a construction consultant firm. Navigate told the city council it would take 13 months to fix the range, including hiring an engineering firm to come up with a new design, and applying for approval from MSD. City officials were frustrated.  "Is there no way to hurry this up?" Mayor Terry Crow said at a council meeting then. "No offense, but this is like death by a thousand cuts." Girdler, in an internal memo, said employees were frustrated, too. "Many things were promised way back in May/June of 2024 that were not delivered on," Girdler wrote. "The City, at least staff, expected a finished project or at least mostly finished. It was never the intent of the City to be in the position to have to spend so much money or time on completing this project." Girdler left the city that month. He declined comment.  'It made a bad situation worse' The driving range is still violating county land disturbance and stormwater regulations, according to recent inspection reports. Brooke Sharp, now deputy city manager after Rose's retirement, acknowledged at a recent council meeting that city staff "didn't have a thorough explanation" of what went wrong. "Essentially the dirt was requested without a plan in place and it made a bad situation worse," Sharp said. The city has estimated it will cost at least $200,000 to hire a construction company to fix the range, in addition to payments to Navigate Solutions. The city did not provide an estimate for how much revenue it lost since the driving range's closure. But critics have pointed to the $300,000 it made the year before it closed, and estimated the city will have lost more than $600,000 by the time it reopens. This month, during a "state of the city" address, Mayor Crow vowed the project would get fixed.  "Out of the goodness of our heart, and the fact that we really wanted Target to come here, we took a quarter of a million dollars worth of free dirt," said Crow, who is running for reelection April 7 and faces a challenge from Councilman Bwayne Smotherson.  "And it’s been the most painful quarter of million dollars worth of free dirt I’ve ever had in my life." 
    • I guess Arberg is now ARRRRRGBerg. Self destructing on the back nine.
    • I mean… It's a TaylorMade promo.
    • This is so cool that they did this, I wish they would do this casually more often
    • Wordle 1,730 5/6 🟨🟨⬜⬜🟩 ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ ⬜🟩🟩⬜🟩 ⬜🟩🟩⬜🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.