Why is there still a fear of the Lob Wedge?

[I KyotE I]

I am one of the people that hate my lob. I stoped carrying it. But I know with time I could get it. and maybe a better lob wedge would help as I tried to cut corners and get something from wal mart and I like shorter clubs and this thing is about an inch longer than my sand. I hope to get a real 58 or 60 as I know how useful they can be.

[lewisgl]

I use either a 58 or 60 degree wedge every round and I play on golf courses with greens ranging from very fast to pretty slow. Both have the same amount of bounce (currently use the X-Forged 58.09 or 60.09). I guess they are both considered to be lob wedges. I generally practice with one of the other for one to three hours per week during the golf season and even in the winter time if the weather isn't bad, so I don't have much fear for either club and either one has helped my game at least somewhat, although I can certainly mishit any club in the bag, and do. So my opinion is that if you practice with any of your wedges enough you should be able to become proficient with any of them. In some ways a 60 degree wedge is a little easier to handle than a 55 or 56 and in some ways it is harder, depending on how a person tries to use it, and form what kind of lies, and of course what kind of swing he uses too. A 55 or 56 degree wedge is going to demand some practice too if one wants to get at least reasonably proficient with one, even more so if one wants to lay them open for a flop or a cut lob, and there are going to be times when one may need to open up his 58 or 60 degree wedge for shots too.

Part of it is a matter of personal choice. There are a lot of really great golfers out there with low handicaps (including some pros still I believe, Rocco Mediate for one example) who don't carry anything higher than a 55 or 56 degree sand wedge and they do quite well with those and there are others who like a 58 or 60 and do quite well with those, so a lot of it boils down to whatever floats your boat. For me, I think a 58 or 60 degree wedge makes some situations shots a little easier to execute as long as the lie is appropriate for what I am trying to do with the shot, but at the same time they require practice (especially if one wants to get shots the like the flop and cut lob down) to get at least somewhat proficient and confident with them, but that also apples to pretty much any other wedge in the bag as well.

[schapman]

Just got a 56* wedge to start using just recently. The thing I find is with such a high loft angle, I expect it to look more lofty than it should be so I end up setting up way too open faced which results in almost hitting the ball sideways. I imagine a 60* would be even worse for me.

Just gotta get used to it and where it should be sitting at address I guess.

[cape cod beachfront golfer]

I carry a 60 lob when course conditions allow for it.
I like my lob and can hit it well...
BUT I need the ball setting up to hit well.
During the middle of summer my home course gets dry...
cart traffic beats the grass down... so I leave the 60 at home.
During the fall and spring when play is down, grass is thick I carry it.
Whenever I travel to a championship course,
where I expect conditions to be prime I definitely carry it.
It is hugely satisfying to drop a lob shot on a pin!
My key to hitting it well... follow through & finish my swing!

[ozgolfer63]

[QUOTE=David in FL;232950]

If I hit 5 out of 7 good chips with my lob wedge and then blade a full shot over the back of the green your telling me to dump my lob wedge??

Well David are you going to tell most of the the tour pro's they all need to dump there drivers because the tour average for hitting fairways is only 63.16%?? As a matter of fact the tour average for GIR is only 63.9% I guess that means those pesky irons have got to go as well!! From a purely contact/ball flight point of view, which is really what this entire discussion is about, then I think anyone who can achieve a 70% sucess rate with a club is indeed a PGA Tour calibre player, congratulations.

[ozgolfer63]

[QUOTE=Fourputt;232972]You are posting yourself as an 8 handicap. YOU ought to be able to strike the ball pretty consistently. We are talking about guys who play to 15 and up, and those who don't practice this very specialized club. Because of the angle of attack on the ball and the loft of the club, the sweet spot IS effective reduced with a higher lofted club. I'm amazed that a single digit capper can't see that very obvious effect. It's just simple physics.



So you are saying that if you only hit 5 out of 8 shots well with a club you wouldn't try to find a better solution? That's only a 62% success rate, which in my mind is terrible. Darn right I'd dump that club in a heartbeat. In fact, I have... it's called my 60° LW... I do just fine now with a 58°, and that appears to be my personal cutoff point. Yours may be different.

I said I hit 5 out of 7 good chips and 1 bladed shot. Once again, this wedge debate is really about control of contact and ball flight. And again, the tour average for driving and GIR is around 63% so obviously these guys are not hitting these clubs well (at least in your mind) and should consider an alternative strategy. If I was to drop every club that performed at 62% or lower I wouldnt have a club in the bag and Im pretty sure 99.99% of players of my level and above wouldnt either!

I appreciate your decision to drop the lob and go with the 58 but using technical reasoning to explain the difference between a 58 and 60 wedge is stretching it a tad. I am an 8 handicapper who unfortunately doesnt get to practice and who plays 1st group every Saturday (5:30am at the moment, way too early) so I can get home early and spend time with the family. Im often amazed at the level of technical analysis that is spewed forth in these forums from players of all levels to explain/justify/determine what is or isnt the right club to use. My favourite, a bit off the track, using a ball flight launcher monitor thingy to measure spin rates/launch angles/ball speeds to choose a driver!! Whatever happened to going to the range and hitting a few clubs and watching the results???

It's true what they say about this game, the more you know the harder it gets!!

[ozgolfer63]

Sorry the quote thingy in my last post hasnt worked properly, or what really happened I didnt do it properly .
Hmmm, is that what this post is really about??

[Fourputt]

1. That stat of GIR on Tour is with all clubs, not just one. Put any wedge in the hands of a tour pro and then tell me his GIR percentage!!!

2. Most shots with the high loft wedges are not even full shots... most are made from greenside at 1/2 swing or less. Those are the ones that most players think of when talking about a LW. And on those I expect to hit the green better than 90% of the time. If I don't then I'm doing something very wrong. There are a lot of misconceptions about lob wedges. Many players think that simply buying one will give them a great short game. Some players even think that every shot made with a 60° wedge is a flop.... I've heard it called a "flop wedge". They don't even realize that a flop is a different shot with a very modified swing. I'll give you that 2° doesn't sound like much, but for me it's night and day. There are guys who swear that 64° is a good wedge loft... I had one of them too and IMO, it's a gimmick club, one more unnecessary thing that the equipment junkies will buy whether they need it or not. I just kept dialing back until I found my comfort zone. A player should use what works for his game. For some that IS a 60° wedge, for others 54° or 56° is more than enough. If you never play fast greens then the 60° is overkill. If you always play firm, fast greens, then you'd better have and know how to use a LW or you will never reach your full scoring potential. The key is learning enough about your own game to be able to make an honest evaluation of your skills vs. your needs.

[Stacey_E]

There are a lot of misconceptions about lob wedges. Many players think that simply buying one will give them a great short game. Some players even think that every shot made with a 60° wedge is a flop.... I've heard it called a "flop wedge". They don't even realize that a flop is a different shot with a very modified swing.

This has been one of my points all along. The whole flopshot vs. flopwedge confussion. I'm one that swears by the 64*, but only for what it has done for MY game. I know enough about my game, and am honest enough to admit at least two things;

1. I cannot hit a flop shot. And if I attempted to hit a flop shot with a sandwedge, any living thing within 100 yards (from straight ahead to 90 degrees right) of me is in mortal danger. 2. I can hit a shot with the trajectory of a flop shot with a much simplier hop and stop swing by using a 64* wedge. Of course one could make the arguement that the ideal scenario is to never shortside yourself, then you never have to play a flop trajectory. That's great stratedgy. But it doesn't take into account the times I might be playing for a safe spot and just dog the approach shot. It's not a game of perfect. But I never, ever felt that buying a 60 or 64 would improve my short game. Why I carry them is because I now have more options of trajectory and distances by using the limited amount of shots in my arsenal. I know the idea is to increase the amount of shots in your arsenal. But you have to play the game you brought that day. So I totally agree with most of what Fourputt has to say. And in doing so, I have to also realize that my game is not the same as his. I carry 5 wedges for the very same reason some people only carry 2....to keep things simple & and to play to my strengths. Where another's strengths might be working 5 different shots with 2 wedges, mine might be working 2 different shots with 5 wedges.

[zeg]

And again, the tour average for driving and GIR is around 63% so obviously these guys are not hitting these clubs well (at least in your mind) and should consider an alternative strategy.

That's silly. A missed fairway or GIR is not necessarily a bad shot. If the ball winds up 1" into the first cut or on the fringe, it counts in that 37% missed. That's not fair to compare against a topped wedge shot that sails 20 yards over the green which is the sort of miss we're talking about.

using technical reasoning to explain the difference between a 58 and 60 wedge is stretching it a tad [...] Im often amazed at the level of technical analysis that is spewed forth in these forums from players of all levels to explain/justify/determine what is or isnt the right club to use.

Golf is, among other things, a game of mechanics. Nobody was trying to explain/justify/determine the right club based on technical arguments, but merely explaining the empirical fact that many players find it more difficult to hit extremely lofted clubs. If you hit a 64deg wedge well, then keep doing it. If not, some understanding of likely mechanical problems may help you figure out where the problem lies.

My favourite, a bit off the track, using a ball flight launcher monitor thingy to measure spin rates/launch angles/ball speeds to choose a driver!! Whatever happened to going to the range and hitting a few clubs and watching the results???

I think there's a place for both. Golf is a physical, mechanical, and psychological sport. You've gotta get those all lined up somehow. My feeling is that the more information you have to put into your decisions, the better. Obviously no launch monitor or equation is going to make a golf club feel good in your hands. However, if you get a similar feel/result from two clubs, quantitative data from the monitor may reveal subtle differences that could be useful in making the choice.

[ozgolfer63]

Golf is, among other things, a game of mechanics. Nobody was trying to explain/justify/determine the right club based on technical arguments, but merely explaining the empirical fact that many players find it more difficult to hit extremely lofted clubs. If you hit a 64deg wedge well, then keep doing it. If not, some understanding of likely mechanical problems may help you figure out where the problem lies.

Golf is as mechanical as you want to make it. If you go back and read my responses they relate primarily to the point raised that in their opinion, the design of the lob wedge makes it more difficult to hit. This is not a question of swing mechanics but a misunderstanding (IMO) of club design. Obviously an individual's swing idiosyncrasies will determine what he/she ultimately prefers in a particular club.

But from a technical viewpoint the ability to consistently strike the centre of the clubface is easiest with the shortest clubs, the wedges. Why? As the shaft length decreases the arc of the swing is reduced and the chance of returning the club to its original position is increased. Get some of those clubface stickers and compare your 3 iron to your wedge and check the dispersion. But wait there's more, as I mentioned earlier as the loft increases in a set of irons so does the size of the clubhead. This is designed to increase the overall size of the sweetspot which maintains the effective/usable size of the sweetspot as the loft of the club increases. The entire point I have been trying to make is that the design of the lob wedge does not make it more difficult to hit, without going into what shots people are attempting and their level of ability or how much they practice etc etc.

[Fourputt]

Golf is as mechanical as you want to make it. If you go back and read my responses they relate primarily to the point raised that in their opinion, the design of the lob wedge makes it more difficult to hit. This is not a question of swing mechanics but a misunderstanding (IMO) of club design. Obviously an individual's swing idiosyncrasies will determine what he/she ultimately prefers in a particular club.

Ok, I'll try one more time. Yes you can hit

any club fat or thin. But... and this is the point we have been trying to make... the penalty paid as compared to the amount of fatness or thinness for such an error is much greater with the LW than it is with a lower lofted club. If I miss by 1/2" fat with an 8I chip, it will still be a better shot than a 1/2" fat with a LW. I still can't understand whey that is such a difficult concept for you to see. Because of the steeply angled clubface, there is much less room for vertical error with the 60°, and it just gets harder to execute with a 64°. I've even read of a 72° wedge... that goes to the point of being ridiculous. A slightly fat swing on a fluffy lie and you won't even touch the ball. What we've been trying to say is not necessarily that it's easier to mishit a LW, only that the more lofted the club, the worse the consequences will be for any given amount of mishit (talking fat and thin, not heel and toe). For that reason it requires more precise ball striking to execute something near your intended shot.

[ozgolfer63]

I still can't understand why that is such a difficult concept for you to see. Because of the steeply angled clubface, there is much less room for

Why?? Because what you're saying doesnt exist!! Grab a ruler and a piece of paper and let me explain. OK draw 2 right angle triangles with x (vertical axis) of 2" and y (horizontal axis) one triangle at 3" the other at 4". Ok now measure the hypotenuse. This is how these clubs are designed!! The height of x remains constant but as the angle between y and the hypotenuse decreases (going from a 56 to a 60 wedge) the length of the hypotenuse increases. X doesnt change!! The only time it changes is when you open the club face and that is NOT a design feature of these clubs it is the choice of the golfer playing the shot. Dont believe me?? Check out club reviews on this website (Look at the mizuno mp 57 for eg) and compare the number of grooves between the 6 and 9 iron. You'll find the 9 iron has 14 and the 6 iron has 12. Why? Because as the face angle decreases the hypotenuse (clubface) is lengthened to maintain a constant height (x). Thats what Im trying to get across, a 52 wedge and a 60 sit the same height off the ground because the face of the 60 is made longer. I have 52 and 58 series 900 cleveland wedges, the 52 has a 2.5mm (sorry we're metric over here) shorter clubface than the 58, which means that when they are placed on the ground at their correct loft angles they sit at the same height. There is NO less room for vertical error.

[zeg]

If you go back and read my responses they relate primarily to the point raised that in their opinion, the design of the lob wedge makes it more difficult to hit. This is not a question of swing mechanics but a misunderstanding (IMO) of club design. Obviously an individual's swing idiosyncrasies will determine what he/she ultimately prefers in a particular club.

I won't argue with the final point, but it seems that many, many people find LW and higher lofts more difficult to hit than PW/SW lofts. There must be some explanation, and I don't think it's entirely psychological.

But from a technical viewpoint the ability to consistently strike the centre of the clubface is easiest with the shortest clubs, the wedges. Why? As the shaft length decreases the arc of the swing is reduced and the chance of returning the club to its original position is increased. Get some of those clubface stickers and compare your 3 iron to your wedge and check the dispersion.

Yes, long-shafted irons are harder to hit than short-shafted, but that's irrelevant for wedge-to-wedge comparisons. Between a 3I and a wedge, no doubt the length of the club makes it easier to hit the wedge. A quick google search for shaft lengths shows ~4 inches out of 40 or roughly a 10% change in length. The same search shows at most a 1-inch change in wedge shafts, and generally no change at all. So the effect that makes the wedge easier than the 3I has no impact on wedge-to-wedge comparisons.

I have 52 and 58 series 900 cleveland wedges, the 52 has a 2.5mm (sorry we're metric over here) shorter clubface than the 58, which means that when they are placed on the ground at their correct loft angles they sit at the same height. There is NO less room for vertical error.

Let's do some math. Let the 52deg wedge have a club face length x and the 58 deg wedge have a club face length x+d, and let's make their vertical heights equal. That is, x*cos(52deg)=(x+d)*cos(58deg). Solving, we find x=d*cos(58deg)/(cos(52)-cos(58). Using your 2.5mm face length difference, this says that your 52deg wedge was all of 15.5mm long!

I don't have my clubs in the house at the moment, but my broken 5I head is about 2 inches or 5 cm long. Assuming the wedge is about the same length, a 58deg wedge would have to be 2.3 inches or 5.8 cm long, aka 8mm longer. A 64deg wedge face would have to be 2.8 inches/7.0 cm long for the same vertical height. Now, we're talking about fractions of an inch (or cm) here, so obviously you're not likely to be lights out with a 52deg wedge and suddenly a total duffer when you reach 58deg and lose an extra ~3mm of vertical height. However, it is 3mm less room to play with and at some point it catches up with you. So we all (I think) agree that a wedge can be easier to hit than a long iron. But once you get to the wedges, the shaft length has stopped shortening to help you out, so the increased loft starts to make them more difficult. At some point you're going to start feeling the difficulty in your shot outcomes. It doesn't take much degradation of your accuracy with a wedge to make the club useless -- a 10-yard miss with a 3I is probably acceptable. Put that same 10-yard miss on your 40-yard wedge shot and you're in the bunker at the bottom of the hill over the green.

[Fourputt]

Why?? Because what you're saying doesnt exist!! Grab a ruler and a piece of paper and let me explain. OK draw 2 right angle triangles with x (vertical axis) of 2" and y (horizontal axis) one triangle at 3" the other at 4". Ok now measure the hypotenuse. This is how these clubs are designed!! The height of x remains constant but as the angle between y and the hypotenuse decreases (going from a 56 to a 60 wedge) the length of the hypotenuse increases. X doesnt change!! The only time it changes is when you open the club face and that is NOT a design feature of these clubs it is the choice of the golfer playing the shot. Dont believe me?? Check out club reviews on this website (Look at the mizuno mp 57 for eg) and compare the number of grooves between the 6 and 9 iron. You'll find the 9 iron has 14 and the 6 iron has 12. Why? Because as the face angle decreases the hypotenuse (clubface) is lengthened to maintain a constant height (x). Thats what Im trying to get across, a 52 wedge and a 60 sit the same height off the ground because the face of the 60 is made longer. I have 52 and 58 series 900 cleveland wedges, the 52 has a 2.5mm (sorry we're metric over here) shorter clubface than the 58, which means that when they are placed on the ground at their correct loft angles they sit at the same height. There is NO less room for vertical error.

I guess we will never convince you. A chunked chip with a LW is ALWAYS going to be more of disaster than the same amount of chunk with an 8I. Likewise with a skulled chip. It's an observable fact, and that's about all I have to say about it.

[ozgolfer63]

If I miss by 1/2" fat with an 8I chip, it will still be a better shot than a 1/2" fat with a LW.

Why will a chunked 8 iron ALWAYS be a better shot than a chunked wedge??? If you're talking distance then obviously that is due to the fact that the 8 iron has a higher clubhead speed and lower loft, not rocket science! Apart from that it depends entirely on the siuation. If I'm trying to hit an 8 iron across a water carry and chunk it Im going to be more penalised than if Im trying to hit my lob wedge into a wide open green and chunk it short.

Zen, dont confuse yourself with the math, get a tape measure and check and you'll see the 60 wedge clubface is slightly longer than the 52 as its designed to be (as I've already mentioned). Its only small but thats because the differences in lofts you guys are talking about, in reality are only small changes. Did you look at the pictures of the MP57's? Did you count the grooves? Draw the triangles and see it for yourself, the math is not complicated Im not sure how you end up with 15.5mm?? The bottom line is that the wedges sit at the same height and the increase in loft is offset by an increase in clubface size and does not increase the vertical error. This is not my opinion , it IS how these clubs are designed and made, the evidence is a tape measure and a photo away. Anyway, thanks for the discussion Ive enjoyed it even if in the end we agree to disagree! Im off to the Australian PGA next week to watch how its really done. Looking forward to seeing John Daly and the top Aussie guys tear the Coolum course apart. Unfortunately wont get to see many drives it is a very short and tight course and I cant think of any holes, even the par 5's where Daly will need to hit driver.

[zeg]

dont confuse yourself with the math, get a tape measure and check and you'll see the 60 wedge clubface is slightly longer than the 52 as its designed to be

If your 52 has 2.5mm less clubface length than your 58, then EITHER you are measuring incorrectly OR your 52 is only 15.5mm long (or your wedge angles are not actually 52 and 58, I guess). That's what drawing the triangles and correctly applying the math says. 2.5mm additional face length simply is not enough to make up for the extra loft with a ~5cm club face.

Anyway, I'm not sure what your theory is here. Is everyone just wrong and a 60 deg wedge is as easy to hit as a 52? If so, well, that flies in the face of an awful lot of anecdotal evidence. If not, then I'm curious what the explanation is.

[ozgolfer63]

Im not sure if we're measuring the same thing? The hypotenuse of the triangle (the clubface) is longer for a 58 than for a 52, thats just the way it is. Dont forget when drawing your triangle the angle your looking at (the club loft) of 60 is not the angle inside the triangle otherwise a lower lofted club would actually have a steeper face and less loft. Its not a theory, get your tape and a matching set of wedges and you'll see for yourself.

The anecdotal evidence talks predominantly about flop shots which has nothing to do with the club design. Open the face of your lob wedge, which increases the bounce angle, and you're going to have a hard time making good contact, thats why the lie for these shots is such an important consideration. If there isnt room under the ball to fit the increased bounce then your going to hit it skinny or your going to hit it fat trying to make room under the ball.