One plane vs two plane and hitter vs swinger (!?)

[daveh]

I've read through most of the posts on one plane vs two plane and hitter vs swinger, and I think I've got a fairly decent handle on the subjects as they stand on their own.

While I'm sure neither of these "vs." models is absolutely rock solid, understanding the fundamentals of one plane vs two plane has really helped me narrow down what I should be working one (I decided on one plane).

I'm finding the hitter vs swinger model equally intriguing as this is something that is a point of confusion for me and there is a lot of seemingly contradictory information. I feel like I need to pick one and go with it.

So, as far as hitter vs swinger... does one model fit better with a one plane swing? If I had to guess I'd say hitter goes more with one plane and swinger with two plane(?).

Any thoughts on this?

I hear a lot of people say not to think about the hands but I just feel too much like I have no idea what I'm doing from the elbows down and it's not helping matters

[grantc79]

I've read through most of the posts on one plane vs two plane and hitter vs swinger, and I think I've got a fairly decent handle on the subjects as they stand on their own.

You have to think about the hands.

The hands are like the clamps on the club that make it work. The basically have to be "educated" to work well. Not having properly educated hands is like having the hinges ass backwards on a door. You can have the best looking door in the world but with hinges on backwards its not doing you much good. As far as hitting and swinging goes most people aren't even aware that there is such a thing as hitting. As a Golfing Machine guy I'm very familiar with both and have done both at one time or another and its really just a personal preference. Hitting is great less flexible people. Swinging is great for more flexible people. Hitting is all muscle power. Swinging is all elasticity. Hitting is harder to learn but easier to do once you learn it. Swinging is easy to learn but you will still find some inconsistency even if you have mastered it. I could go further but to go further would get into lingo like angled vs vertical hinging which you guys probably aren't familiar with. Realistically anyone can do either one but some people are better off doing one or the other. The hardest part of hitting that you will experience is finding someone who can actually teach it seeing as probably 99% of the teachers out there don't have a clue when it comes to hitting.

[grantc79]

Here is a hitter in action:

[daveh]

grantc79 - Thanks for the input.

Sounds like hitting is a good fit for me. I'll give it a shot.

[grantc79]

grantc79 - Thanks for the input.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/ is where you gotta go. Go to the forums and read everything you can in the hitting section. I'd also pick up a copy of the golfing machine book and start getting accompanied with it.

[Sandwedge74]

Hi I find this thread intriguing. I recently read the book by Bobby Clampet called the impact zone to try to improve my ball striking. Using his techniques of really keep a flat left wrist at impact - I feel much more like I am "hitting" the ball - is this what you are talking about?? I have wonderful drives (only one hook per round and not every round) and great fairway wood play as well but my irons are really all over the map. I can play 16 holes at 6 or 7 over par and then out of no where hit a really bad shank (sorry for the word) and I put up doubles and triples - it has driven me to consider giving the game up because it is so demoralizing and frusterating but I am committed to trying to be a better iron player. My first round after reading the Impact zone was a score of 80 and I had 9 greens in regulation. then on my next round the shank and or topped iron shot came back into play at around the 15 hole and the score came in as an 87 - should I be working on hitting rather then swinging?? it seems most pros say - swing as if the ball wasn't there etc... are there any PGA tour pros that are "hitters"? can you elaborate for what a hitter is??

[daveh]

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/

Yeah, after reading your post I ordered TGM on amazon. I also found the Lynn Blake site shortly afterward.

This site here however is making me believe I was absolutely wrong and that a one plane/rotary swing goes hand in hand with "swinging". I'll figure it out as I read more thought I guess. Thanks again.

[grantc79]

Yeah, after reading your post I ordered TGM on amazon. I also found the Lynn Blake site shortly afterward.

The people at Lynn Blake's site are amazingly helpful.

As for T.G.M. book, try not to get overwhelmed. A whole lot of people try to read it like a book and get completely lost in it and wind up giving up. It isn't a book you read and comprehend cover to cover. It is more like a science book, encyclopedia, or dictionary even for the golf swing. I picked over the book (and still do) and pick out components or keys that I want to work on for my golf game. You will feel like you are back in school writing down and memorizing definitions just to "understand the lingo" but it is very, very much worth it. Another must read is Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine: The Curious Quest That Solved Golf . That goes into great detail about Homer Kelly and how he did his work which is really interesting. A reader could finish it in just a couple of days with enough time and it will give you some insight as to what you are getting into. Overall, TGM is in my opinion the best golf teaching system on the planet and nothing comes close. It is one thing to be taught how to hold and swing a club. It is a completely broader, more precise, and far better thing to be taught why.

[grantc79]

Hi I find this thread intriguing. I recently read the book by Bobby Clampet called the impact zone to try to improve my ball striking. Using his techniques of really keep a flat left wrist at impact - I feel much more like I am "hitting" the ball - is this what you are talking about?? I have wonderful drives (only one hook per round and not every round) and great fairway wood play as well but my irons are really all over the map. I can play 16 holes at 6 or 7 over par and then out of no where hit a really bad shank (sorry for the word) and I put up doubles and triples - it has driven me to consider giving the game up because it is so demoralizing and frusterating but I am committed to trying to be a better iron player. My first round after reading the Impact zone was a score of 80 and I had 9 greens in regulation. then on my next round the shank and or topped iron shot came back into play at around the 15 hole and the score came in as an 87 - should I be working on hitting rather then swinging?? it seems most pros say - swing as if the ball wasn't there etc... are there any PGA tour pros that are "hitters"? can you elaborate for what a hitter is??

Pardon me if I get a little long winded. If you don't want to read this part then skip down to the next section about hitting and swinging....

Bobby Clampett was the golden child of The Golfing Machine basically. Bobby was a student of Ben Doyle's and Ben Doyle was one of the original A.I.'s of The Golfing Machine and was the first person who really "got" The Golfing Machine. Homer Kelly taught him himself. As amazing of a talent as Bobby was, he never really lived up to his potential. Morgan Pressel, Brian Gay, and others of the modern day are doing pretty well though and they are all "TGM" students. Homer always said something to the effect of "Golf as an immensely complex machine is way more tolerable than golf as an enigma" which is what TGM is about. You don't so much learn what to do as much as you learn why to do it. My coach has taught several PGA tour pros and could tell you some very funny stories one of which was a practice round he spent with Jack Nicklaus. He was so excited ot pick Jack's brain on the golf swing only to find out Jack really didn't know much about the golf swing, he was just good at doing it. In short, you shanking the ball or shooting 80 one day followed by 100 the next day isn't a big deal as long as you can figure out why you shanked it. If you don't figure it out it might go away only to come back again another day. The Golfing Machine gives you the how and the why. There are basically 3 types of motions (I'm going to assume you are right handed). Swingers which make up 98% of the golfing world. Hitters which make up 2% of the golfing world. Most people swing because its a natural thing and its what everyone knows and everyone teaches. Hell up until a few years ago Titleist with their TPI school didn't even know about hitters. They since figured it out and called them thrusters. Some famous hitters are Lee Trevino, Arnold Palmer, and Larry Nelson. Other suspected hitters are Craig Stadler, Stuart Appleby, JB Holmes, and Dana Quigley. You identify hitters and swingers by 2 different things: 1: Hitters have a shorter back swing with a club face slightly more closed at the top. 2: Hitters have an angled hinge vs. a horizontal hinge (TGM terminology which I will explain) There are 3 types of hinges (grab a club and you will see what I mean by these). Vertical: Club face stays open well after impact leading to a higher more spinny shot. Use around the green and for flop shots. Angled: Club face closes gradually through impact (Hitters use this). Horizontal: Club face closes quickly, forcefully, and completely at impact (Swingers use this). Vertical is self explanatory and if you ever hit flop shots you will get that. Angled hinging basically the club appears to be closing very early in the down swing and continually to slowly but continually close through impact. This leads to a very high finish. Horizontal hinging is a snappy release of the left wrist late in the swing followed by an immediate "thumbs up" motion on the right hand after impact with a lower more around the body type of finish. See Tiger: Lynn Blake is pretty much considered the Guru now and he explains hinging in this video: As for the difference between hitting and swinging..... Swinging is a pulling process where the body's pivot is used as a coil to generate torque. That torque and coiling effect produce club head speed and power. Swinging uses centrifugal force achieved through body flexibility to create speed. Hitting is a pushing process where the right arm drives the club down the plane line to impact. The body may pivot, turn, or coil but the direct power of the swing comes from the right tricep. Hitting is pure muscle.

[grantc79]

Feel free to pick my brain on anything else you want be it hitting, swinging, or golfing machine related. Hell feel free to call me crazy if you want.

I'm hoping to be teaching this stuff one day and I enjoy talking about it to be honest.

[tm22721]

You have to think about the hands.

You nailed it, TGM is the key to getting the smoke and mirrors teachers (99% as you say) out of this industry.

I have given up on swinging due to inconsistency and flexibility issues after five years. Hitting is natural for those with some arm strength. Popeye arms and legs are definitely a plus. Short backswing, pronation and suppination of forearms to load/unload the club, educated hands to sense lag pressure. It is harder to learn because you must NOT swing your arms from 9 to 3 o'clock rather you keep them close to the chest using the body to propel and sync the club releasing low left instead of down the line. Maintaining shaft flex is key to sustaining the line of compression through the ball.

[daveh]

Hey grantc79 thanks for the awesome info. I'll take you up on your offer as I get more into this and get more confused

[daveh]

Man this is good stuff.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...urriculum.html

I especially like the part about the finish (turning radius and ulna) as I have never been able to figure out how you're supposed to get through to the finish with shots like that.

And that's just chapter one