How do blades really promote working the ball?

[jrm1493]

I have been giving this some thought recently, and I don't really understand how blades or clubs with lower MOI really promote more sidespin (aka workability).

In my mind, sidespin must be almost completely imparted by hitting the ball in such a way that the clubface is open or closed relative to the velocity vector, which means that the ball will start to roll left or right on the face. This is similar to how loft promotes backspin. In my mind the ball must launch in the direction that the club face is pointed at impact, but it will have side spin relative to how open or closed the club face is at impact. It seems to me that the MOI of the club would have little to do with any of this.

I can't really see how the position of the cg really would affect this other than at impact a more compact cg would tend to rotate the clubface more closed if the ball were struck toward the heel side of the cg or more open if struck more towards the toe. I believe this is called "gear effect", however I can't believe that much of this actually occurs given the large relative mass of the club to the ball and the short duration of the impact time. All of the energy that has gone into rotating the mass of the clubhead/shaft/hands/arms by not striking the cg is now not imparted to the ball resulting in distance loss. I can't believe that hitting a ball much off the cg is ever a good thing.

The only advantage I can see to a smaller MOI is that the clubhead itself would be smaller which will make it easier to get through thick rough.

I'd like to hear what others think about this...

[enduro]

The sweet spot is smaller allowing the golfer to impart more side spin on the ball allowing the golfer to have more control over the shape of the shot. Cavity backs are thinner behind the striking part of the face and this produces less spin on the ball. Great for most players who want to hit straight shots and want their misses to not miss so badly.

You can shape a CB, especially modern ones. But not as well since the nature of the club is to remove some spin via perimeter weighting.

Blades also go further, promoting a more penetrating shot. Of course the downside is bad shots come easier as well.

[sean_miller]

The true centre of gravity is a tiny point inside the clubhead. The farther it is away from the shaft, the larger the moment of inertia which in turn, causes a tendency for the club to twist more when the centre of gavity is missed. The lower the COG, the more backspin will be imparted. Beyond that, a ball struck with COG should go through the same experience with muscle back or a cavity back - in theory.

Although the ball striking the centre of gravity doesn't know whether there's a cavity behind the face, the ball with the proper compression ratio for the swing speed spends a fraction of a second longer on the face of a forged muscle back iron. That fraction of a second imparts more sidespin. This effect is better illustrated when comparing a new driver versus a persimmon driver from the 80s. If you play a wound ball and a persimmon driver you can curve it virtually 90 degrees around a dogleg. The same shot with a distance 2-piece and an R7 will put you straight through the fairway into the bush.

[clubchamp]

Blades have less or no offset which also helps but the reality of it is not many people work the ball. I've played with a lot of good golfers and I can count the number of people on my hand who could truely work the ball. Plus in my opinion working the ball is not a big part of golf. I do think that some pins and tee shots sometimes require you to do it but if I hit every shot dead straight all the time I would be happy.

[enduro]

I do think that some pins and tee shots sometimes require you to do it but if I hit every shot dead straight all the time I would be happy.

That's exactly why you work the ball. Hitting it dead straight all the time isn't going to happen and you leave the entire course in play. I believe it was Nicklaus who said you'll never be a good golfer if you try and his the ball straight. Now, they were using different gear then and things have changed, but the point is still relevant.

The main reason is you take half the course out of play if you can work a draw or a fade. I've just recently gotten these shots on demand reasonably well since rebuilding a swing (and taking a few steps back for awhile this year). And it makes a huge difference. Having hazard to 1 side and fairway to other and that side being the way my ball is spinning is really nice. It adds a much larger margin of error than hitting it straight. It isn't that a tee or a pin requires it. It's that the game becomes easier to play and control when you can.

[pittpanther]

That's exactly why you work the ball. Hitting it dead straight all the time isn't going to happen and you leave the entire course in play. I believe it was Nicklaus who said you'll never be a good golfer if you try and his the ball straight. Now, they were using different gear then and things have changed, but the point is still relevant.

Would you mind expanding on this topic? I can't be the only high HCer who wonders why working the ball is such a desired trait (other than it being a cool thing to do, like backspin on a pitch). Is it "easier" to hit a fade or draw than hitting a straight shot? What do you mean by "taking half the course out of play?"

One of my pet peeves about golf coverage on TV - they don't do a good job of VISUALLY explaining why a particular shot is desired. Feherty might say "He's setting up for a slight draw," but there is no graphic or demonstration showing WHY a slight draw might be desired.

[out_in_30]

what he means by taking half the course out of play is... when you have trouble on one area and A1 position in the other... you work the ball away from the trouble generally... since if you know that the next swing you produce will produce a cut shot and there is trouble to the left...u have almost eliminated the possibility of of finding the trouble on the left since your ball will be working away from it. so if you can apply that to all shots on the course you will hardly find yourself in trouble if you know where the ball is going. whereas if you mess up and you are trying to hit it straight.. a bad swing can make it go anywhere.

[clubchamp]

That's exactly why you work the ball. Hitting it dead straight all the time isn't going to happen and you leave the entire course in play. I believe it was Nicklaus who said you'll never be a good golfer if you try and his the ball straight. Now, they were using different gear then and things have changed, but the point is still relevant.

I understand what you are saying my point is that most people can't work the ball on demand. Frankly most people that claim they are going to hit a fade or draw... it isn't going to happen. I'm all for working the ball but if I don't have to do it I don't. My natural ball flight is a draw and even if there is a hazard down the right (lefty) I'd still hit the draw before setting up down the hazard to hit a fade. The pro I work with always says look for the shot that gives you confidence and don't over think. So unless I have to work the ball I don't and it seems to work for me.

[enduro]

Would you mind expanding on this topic? I can't be the only high HCer who wonders why working the ball is such a desired trait (other than it being a cool thing to do, like backspin on a pitch). Is it "easier" to hit a fade or draw than hitting a straight shot? What do you mean by "taking half the course out of play?"

out_in_30 covered it mainly. Also, it is often easier to hit a draw or a fade and get it to the area you want. This is because the nature of the shot. Since the ball flight in a draw is going out and coming back in, you approach the fairway from more of a side angle than a straight shot. So the fairway is, in effect, wider. This increases your margin of error. You're only in trouble if you don't draw it all, which is hard to do when trying to play that shot or if you just outright hook it. But even if you hook it some, it at least is starting out to the right and coming back.

A shot I really like to play (as I've gotten it down pretty recently) is off a tee aim into the right side setting up the draw. The ball starts off going right but makes a nice, smooth transition to the left. As it approaches the fairway, it is approaching it from an angle on the side making the fairway an insanely wide target to hit. Even if I under draw it some it has a great chance of making the fairway, so long as I got some draw on it. If I over draw it and hook it some, it still has a good chance of staying on since it would have to get all the way across the fairway to be on the other side. Regardless, it would have to roll across the fairway which is harder to do than rolling across only half the fairway, as a straight shot can do if pushed or pulled just a small amount. And because you're trying to put that side of spin on it isn't likely you're going to NOT put that spin on so you can guarantee it's going to move that way at least some. When I try and go straight I have a chance I'll push it or pull it. The fairway is much narrower since the angle I'm approaching it on is straight. For me, erring on the side of more spin is usually a good idea. I feel like I have a lot more control of the ball when drawing it rather than hitting it straight. It makes the approach into the fairway much wider and increases the margin of error since it is curving in. Half the course is more or less taken out of play on the shot. And you generally get a nice roll with a draw.

[enduro]

I understand what you are saying my point is that most people can't work the ball on demand. Frankly most people that claim they are going to hit a fade or draw... it isn't going to happen. I'm all for working the ball but if I don't have to do it I don't. My natural ball flight is a draw and even if there is a hazard down the right (lefty) I'd still hit the draw before setting up down the hazard to hit a fade. The pro I work with always says look for the shot that gives you confidence and don't over think. So unless I have to work the ball I don't and it seems to work for me.

Yeah, everyone is different. I feel a lot more control when drawing but if you don't, obviously forcing the issue is a bad idea. And you're right, it isn't like you can just rely on that 1 shot. I hit plenty of straight shots. And probably will until a reliable fade gets worked in.

But honestly, once a good, fundamental swing is worked into the play, learning a draw and a fade isn't too challenging. And this is where golf has begun to get fun for me. I've made a lot of swing changes being coached recently and my game has changed and it has really started taking off just recently. So I'm having fun shaping a shot out there and approaching the game totally different and for the better.

[rebby]

what he means by taking half the course out of play is... when you have trouble on one area and A1 position in the other... you work the ball away from the trouble generally... since if you know that the next swing you produce will produce a cut shot and there is trouble to the left...u have almost eliminated the possibility of of finding the trouble on the left since your ball will be working away from it. so if you can apply that to all shots on the course you will hardly find yourself in trouble if you know where the ball is going. whereas if you mess up and you are trying to hit it straight.. a bad swing can make it go anywhere.

And, vice-versa. For example; let's say you're in the middle of the fairway hitting into an inverted L shaped green with a bunker short left and water long right. Here is a bad, ascii illustration (G == green, X == hole, S == sand, W == Water) ->

None

[Drifterland]

I work the ball in a very simple manner. I aim at the center of the green and aim the clubface wherever the hell the pin is. If I miss it goes in the center of the green. Also If I really want to fire at the pin I always use my natural shot shape (slight draw)

Using these procedures keeps me out of trouble and has me hit lots of greens in regulation.

[rebby]

I work the ball in a very simple manner. I aim at the center of the green and aim the clubface wherever the hell the pin is. If I miss it goes in the center of the green. Also If I really want to fire at the pin I always use my natural shot shape (slight draw)

I like it!

[sean_miller]

I like it!

I also voted yes. I work the ball, but only very slightly.

[Drifterland]

I have been giving this some thought recently, and I don't really understand how blades or clubs with lower MOI really promote more sidespin (aka workability).

Side to side workability is nearly Identical. But up and down is a different story. Tiger hits it allot lower than most people sometimes because he has weight higher in the club. Most Irons (Cavity backs) have the weight really low to promote high ball flight. That is why tiger doesn't use them or hybrids, because his SS is so high he would balloon the poo out of em.

So in other words if you want to hit a low fade or low draw, blades are better. Hitting a knock down with a cavity back is very difficult in my humble opinion. About 80% of "Working" the ball is up and down, not side to side. The smaller head also promotes a feedback factor so you can feel why you missed that hook or fade you were trying to hit.

[Drifterland]

I like you, you sexy man beast!

Why thank you!