Overseeding - What to expect?

[Bubba_13]

I will be heading down to the Gold Canyon Resort in Phoenix on November 11 for 4 days of golf and 4 days of celebrating my 40th birthday.

I was wonder what to expect after a course goes through the overseeding process? I have read that the greens will be longer and a little shaggy and the fairways wet. There has been a large range of opinions on how the course conditions will be. Some people are saying to stay away from an overseeded course for at least 3 weeks others say that it will be good to go once they open.

Dinosaur Mtn. being the later of the two will have its overseeding done from Oct 15th to Nov. 1st. we won't be playing it until the 13th so I am hoping that we will find the course in good condition.

I am looking for some experienced feedback from players who have golfed a course right after the overseed process.

Cheers

[flap]

First things first.Chances are it wikk be the dreaded CPO{cart pathsonly}I do not think the greens will be "Shaggy" as you say because they can not afford to scalp them to get them back to where they are normally.I have played on some courses down south right after overseeding and all they asked was do not drive the rough stay in the fairway with the carts.Dop not project problems its your birthday and you will be playing golf,Is that so BAD?

[Dub]

Congrats on the birthday trip.


I don't think you'll encounter too much trouble, in fact, I don't think you'll notice it at all on the greens.


It's not like they get any type of winter weather there. I don't see how the overseeding would be that aggressive. You'll probably have highs in the low 70's during your trip.....perfect golf weather.

I'd call the courses and convey my concerns and see what they say about it.

[tjy355]

I live in the Phoenix metro area so I can tell you what to expect.

Tees and fairways - no problems (other than they will be very wet and typically cart path only); it is the greens that make or break the experience.

In my opinion, It really takes 8 weeks before you can be fairly guaranteed a good putting surface on which you wouldn't be thinking "they recently overseeded this green."

The period between 4 and 8 weeks are the "gray area" and depend on the course and the weather. It can be really hard to predict what you might encounter during this time. I have played courses after 4 weeks and the greens were great (maybe a little slow) and I have played courses after 6 weeks that were horrible.

Before 4 weeks, the greens will not be cut to normal height. The less grow-in time the longer the grass will be. Courses will typically reopen and allow play on very shaggy and slow putting surfaces. (And from my experience, they won't always tell you about it.)

At four weeks, you should have a fair to good chance of having decent putting surfaces. They certainly won't be rolling like they will by the end of December but should not be disappointing.

Most depends on the weather and how much seed they use. If it stays too warm or gets too cold during the germination period, then it takes longer to get a good grow-in. If we get a heavy rain within the first couple of weeks, that REALLY screws things up.

Looks like the Sidewinder was overseeded first so it should be fine. It is the weaker course though, Dinosaur is the much more interesting play. Outrageous views of the Superstition Mountains. Playing tip: KEEP THE BALL BELOW THE HOLE ON #3 !!

Here is another tip, if you are looking to play other courses nearby, Superstition Mountain, the Lyle Anderson developed, Jack Nicklaus designed 36-hole PRIVATE golf community is in receivership and they are now allowing outside play. Tee times available on Golfnow.com. Literally around the corner from Gold Canyon.

Enjoy your visit and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

[Bubba_13]

Thanks for the feedback.

We are in a 'stay and play' deal at Gold Canyon but that doesn't mean we are limited to golfing their courses. If the conditions are not up to snuff then we will consider other options.

I spoke to one of the gentleman in the pro shop and he was adamant that the course would be very playable and that we would never see an Arizona course 'more green and lush'. Mind you, he is also trying to fill up his booking sheet and get paid customers through the course if conditions are less than ideal.

tjy355 - How available are tee times around mid November? Have the snowbirds started flocking down or will we be able to just phone a couple of courses in the morning and get a tee time?

Cheers

[tjy355]

tjy355 - How available are tee times around mid November? Have the snowbirds started flocking down or will we be able to just phone a couple of courses in the morning and get a tee time?

Undoubtably, demand is down in this economy and tee times are always available somewhere. If your group is more than a foursome, I wouldn't be waiting until the morning-of, and weekends are busier naturally. As far as the resort, I would line something up asap, and understand

(and make use of) the cancellation policy (usually 24-48 hrs) in case something else comes up. First wave of snowbirds come just after Thanksgiving or earlier if it gets cold early, but the main influx is after Christmas. The snowbird population mainly stays with the value golf options. (not Gold Canyon...).

[Bubba_13]

I would line something up asap, and understand

Cheers, I will book some tee times this weekend.

[Dub]

tjy355.....wow, that is informative.

Why the heavy overseeding with such a mild seasonal climate transition?


I never would have guessed it would be like that.

[bman1313]

overseeding is absolutely crucial to the AZ tourist season. People visiting from the rest of the country expect perfect conditions and green green grass. The overseed rates are much higher than you see in the South East. There are a few courses such as Troon North who have bent grass greens which is a cool season grass that does not get overseeded. Expect to pay big money at Troon North in season.

[tjy355]

Why the heavy overseeding with such a mild seasonal climate transition?

It has to do mostly with presenting a VERDANT GREEN golf course to the winter tourists who come to spend money. As well, residents have come to expect it and these days you will find very few courses in the greater Phoenix area that don't overseed. It wasn't always so, and there are some exceptions.

Because of the summer temperature extremes, the grass that can be used most effectively in the the desert climate is Bermuda grass. Great playing surface from mid March to the end of October. When the overnight temps drop in the late fall, bermuda goes dormant - stops growing and the blades of grass gradually turn brown. Phoenix does get overnite frost and a few hard freezes during a typical winter. The first frost takes care of any remaining green bermuda. The root system is still alive however and by early spring, new growth appears. With warm weather and a little water, turf that looks totally dead will turn green in a few weeks time. Now dormant bermuda makes a perfectly playable, firm, fast and FUN golf surface as long as it is not left to totally bake dry. The main problem with dormant bermuda is the greens. With the concentrated foot traffic, spikes, etc., a dormant bermuda green gets chopped up pretty quickly. Solution: Scalp the Bermuda surface and apply ryegrass seed. After a 3-4 week grow-in, the rye can be cut down and now an acceptable (and green) putting surface for the winter. At the same time, most courses also applied the rye overseed to the tees. When I first moved to Phoenix in 1978, there were a handful of courses that went totally dormant, but most at the time were overseeding tees and greens. Gradually, the concept spread to completely overseeding the course including fairways and roughs. The upscale courses with large budgets could present a totally green golf course to attract tourists and to be competetive, most courses had to follow. Nowdays, the golfing public doesn't want to play on "dead" grass, they want GREEN. Which presents several problems, mostly from a quality of golf perspective but also from a turfgrass maintenance standpoint. It is very expensive to overseed not just the seed but the labor and water needed for grow-in. (and the green fees reflect it!) Obviously, there is an interruption in play during the grow-in. Most courses close 2-3 weeks, but it is rare green ready to play three weeks from seed. Slow and shaggy conditions greet players in most cases. Four weeks and on, they can lower the blades and start to get better green surfaces. Some are more tolerant, but I think it takes fully 8 weeks or more to attain a decent putting surface after overseed. Left on its own, Bermuda stays pretty green and quite playable into November. Most of the hybrid bermuda used on golf courses today are a lot more cold tolerant than the old fashion common bermuda. And in early March it is perfectly green again. Which introduces another problem with overseeding is that it has to be timed properly to achieve a good grow-in. If you wait until the bermuda really starts to go dormant, it is then too cold to get a good germination with the rye. So they start the overseed earlier, Late September, just when the bermuda is looking its best coming out of the summer, it gets scalped down and the rye overseed begins. Starting too soon has its issues as well, if it is too warm, the rye competes with the bermuda and doesn't thrive immediately. THEN... in the spring, another transition that creates less than perfect golf conditions. While the bermuda starts greening up in March, the rye is not ready to give it up until May or so. On its own, the bermuda would be thriving by May, but instead the bermuda growth is suppressed and the rye stays green until the hot weather arrives, then suddenly dies off leaving the bermuda to try to catch up in the hottest, driest part of the year. This usually creates spotty conditions for the first month or so of summer as superintendents struggle with bare spots. The other issue with overseeding, the grow-in takes a tremendous amount of water and even after, rye needs a lot more water than bermuda to look its best. So from the fall reopening thru December you can generally count on very wet conditions and cart path only. Even through the tourist season to the end of March, many courses just keep it way wetter that it needs to be. Unfortunately, this creates a rather one-dimensional playing condition that favors a strictly aerial game. Fly the ball to the fairway... splat! Fly the ball to the green... splat. No way to experience or enjoy the contours of the course and use a variety of shots. I'm editorializing of course, but I think the desire for lush green conditions results in a game that is a little less fun. Finally, the long term health of the bermuda base turf suffers from repeated overseeding which tends to deplete the soil of natural nutrients over time. It is said that most courses would benefit by skipping the overseed every few years. ADDENDUM: There are courses in the Phoenix area that maintain bent grass greens. This surface stay playable in the winter and does not need to be overseeded. Why then, don't all courses in Phoenix have bent greens? A whole new set of problems keeping the bent healthy in the summer is the main reason. A slew of upscale daily fee courses opened in the late 80's early 90's with bent. All but a few have switched to bermuda. Bent is mostly successful in the foothill areas with a bit more elevation and slightly cooler temperatures than the Phoenix valley. Also some privates with less play and higher maintenance budgets have been successful with keeping bent greens. Geez, sorry I wrote a book! Hope this helps.

[Dub]

Thank you for the excellent explanation.

I was ignorant to the frost issues you experienced there. I thought it stayed warm and dry year round. Again, thank you for providing a better understanding.

My home course went dormant this past winter. It was a bit painful on the eyes, however the course played great. They did occasionaly spray the berumda greens with something that both treated them and made them "greener" at the same time.

I'm strongly considering a new home course. The greens are a concern, however. They are bentgrass. I sought out bentgrass courses back home...but down here there are annual issues. These greens roll beautifully from now through June....but the dry conditions and baking heat really hurt then. It is so closeby and the layout is interesting...so I may jump in anyway.

I'm going to be interested in how they approach the brown vs. green battle in the weeks and month ahead.

[Montemau]

Gold Canyon/Dinosaur overseeding dates are 10/12-10/29 so expect cart path only with long wet grass on the fairways, hard to find golf balls and greens that will be slow.

[RemyM]

The main problem with dormant bermuda is the greens. With the concentrated foot traffic, spikes, etc., a dormant bermuda green gets chopped up pretty quickly. Solution: Scalp the Bermuda surface and apply ryegrass seed. After a 3-4 week grow-in, the rye can be cut down and now an acceptable (and green) putting surface for the winter.

Excellent post. However most course use Poa Trivialis to over-seed greens rather then rye grass.

http://www.grounds-mag.com/mag/groun...vialis_friend/

[RemyM]

My home course went dormant this past winter. It was a bit painful on the eyes, however the course played great. They did occasionaly spray the berumda greens with something that both treated them and made them "greener" at the same time.

Ah yes, Green Lawnger.

http://www.beckerunderwood.com/en/products/greenlawnger

[bman1313]

Excellent post. However most course use Poa Trivialis to over-seed greens rather then rye grass.

A majority of PUBLIC courses in Phoenix overseed with a combo of Rye and Poa Triv. or rye/poa triv/bent. The rye usually gets mowed out since it can not take a low mow height as can the poa triv and bent. The rye germinates first and establishes quicker than poa triv and bent.

[Chief Broom]

Overseeding is one of the least enviromentally friendly things a golf course can do. Of course playing on dormant bermuda (something I'm very familiar with) isn't a whole lot of fun either, but at some point courses and golfers need to set reasonable and ultimately more sustainable expectations. And as the excellent commentary provided by tjy355 clearly illustrates overseeding creates additional problems for the course that aren't necessary. The muni I frequent lets their greens go dormant, paints them, and rolls them daily. Naturally the greens are much more playable this time of year, but I consider that part of the price for playing during the winter off season.

[tjy355]

If anyone wants to check out playing on a dormant bermuda surface, Southern Dunes in Maricopa will not overseed this year.

Last winter they were playing on overseeded tees and fairways, but not the greens. They kept the greens moist so they were receptive and rolled daily. Talk about a smooth, true and VERY FAST putting surface. Wow, lots of fun.

The bermuda used at Southern Dunes is a hybrid that has a shorter dormant period than common bermuda. Actually should stay somewhat green unless they get a hard freeze.

[Ricklefebvre]

Hi

great course and I have played it a few weeks after overseading in December

was in great shape but your biggest problem will be cart path only

this course is very hilly and the way it is set up you will be doing a lot of walking back and forth and up and down

TrybTroon North or We Ko Pa and check cart path rules

We play Dinosoar after Dec15 when it not cart path only

Have a great time

rick