Hips during the swing?

[mc0388]

Im just curious,

Ive been working really hard at developing (for myself) a very compact, efficient, and repeatable golf swing. The one part of my golf swing Im not sure of is what my hips* are supposed to do on my take away. What I mean is:

With my current backswing I try to control my hips pointed at the target as I make my shoulder turn. I noticed that this really 'winds' up my torso to deliver a smooth yet powerful downswing. I do realize that my hips do actually rotate clockwise a bit during my backswing, but the conscious effort to keep them facing the target makes it feel as if they haven't moved.

I see a lot of people really turn there hips (45*-60*) during there swing and to me it looks like a lot of wasted movement...

What are people's opinions of this?

[luckyluke699]

Hello, this is something I've been paying particular attention recently (for exactly the same reason as you) also...

I'd definitely recommend Ben hogans modern fundamentals of golf, as it covers this quite well, including angles of hips and shoulders at points in the swing (both up and down)...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ben-Hogans-F.../dp/0743295285

You are right attempting to 'limit' the hip turn in an attempt to 'wind up' the power (almost as if there's elastic tied between your shoulders and waist) while maximising the shoulder turn. Get the book (I bought it off an ebay book trader for under £3 delivered... who cares if it's second hand!).

I might be wrong here (not been playing tooooo long) but people who excessively turn their hips, can't be keeping their right leg "planted" and spine straight... so I would imagine they would have to compensate a lot to make up for that?

[deronsizemore]

Your hips are supposed to turn in the backswing. The general rule of thumb is the hips turn 45 degrees and the shoulders turn 90 degrees. Keep in mind that a lot of people aren't flexible enough to reach these positions, but that's typically what is taught.

Trying to limit or eliminate your hip turn in the backswing will likely cause some over the top movement on the downswing. I used to try to limit my hip turn as well to create that torque you always hear pros talk about but I hit the ball 100 times better now than I ever did now that I actually rotate all parts of my body correctly on the backswing. Everything works together instead of against each other.

Head over to YouTube and type in "swing vision" and watch the videos and then try to copy what you see. All of the pros do rotate their hips on the backswing even if they say they feel like they are resisting. We all know what what we feel and what we actually do in the golf swing can be two totally different things. That's why it's so hard to learn from someone telling you how to swing, because even though they may feel like they're doing one thing, they're actually doing something else.

[iacas]

Your hips are supposed to turn in the backswing. The general rule of thumb is the hips turn 45 degrees and the shoulders turn 90 degrees. Keep in mind that a lot of people aren't flexible enough to reach these positions, but that's typically what is taught.

I think almost everyone can turn their hips 45 degrees and their shoulders 45 more. That's only 45 for each.

It's tougher to turn your hips 45 degrees if you keep your right knee flexed. Allow it to straighten a little and that will help. Not lock, just "lessen the bend."

Trying to limit or eliminate your hip turn in the backswing will likely cause some over the top movement on the downswing.

It did with me... because your hips will want to turn through at the normal rate. If they start off only 10 degrees rotated and rotate 80 degrees from top-of-swing to impact, that's 70 degrees open. If they start out 45 degrees rotated, that's 35 at impact. When the right hip rotates it throws the shoulders out over the plane and the club outside the line.

I used to try to limit my hip turn as well to create that torque you always hear pros talk about but I hit the ball 100 times better now than I ever did now that I actually rotate all parts of my body correctly on the backswing. Everything works together instead of against each other.

Jim McLean almost deserves to be shot for the whole "X-Factor" thing. What he failed to really stress in that whole thing was that the pros got 60° of separation or so... but they were still turning their hips 45 to 50°. Their shoulders just went past 90...

That single piece of advice, the X-Factor, screwed up a lot of golfers. Perhaps more than any other single piece of advice. No, wait, I'd put it second right behind "shift your weight right on the backswing."

Head over to YouTube and type in "swing vision" and watch the videos and then try to copy what you see. All of the pros do rotate their hips on the backswing even if they say they feel like they are resisting.

The more you know about the golf swing, the more you realize that what pros say they do is often not at all what they actually do.

[deronsizemore]

I think almost everyone can turn their hips 45 degrees and their shoulders 45 more. That's only 45 for each.

Good points.

Jim McLean almost deserves to be shot for the whole "X-Factor" thing. What he failed to really stress in that whole thing was that the pros got 60° of separation or so... but they were still turning their hips 45 to 50°. Their shoulders just went past 90...

Jim McLean is exactly why I started trying to eliminate hip turn and create the "x factor." This was probably five years ago and lets say it wasn't one of my best years.

No, wait, I'd put it second right behind "shift your weight right on the backswing."

True again. Used to really try to shift my weight too which caused me to have a huge sway to my right side off the ball. I was getting to my right side alright... getting it back to the left involved some work.

[madcityscott]

Good points.

My instructor wants me to allow my head to come back laterally on the backswing (it had been going slightly

forward ), ostensibly to ensure that my weight moves onto my back foot. Are you guys saying that's hooey?

[iacas]

My instructor wants me to allow my head to come back laterally on the backswing (it had been going slightly

I'll just say this: just as you don't want your head going forwards, you don't want it going backwards either. It introduces timing and inconsistency, IMO.

If you want to talk about it more please start another thread. This one's called "Hips during the swing" so where your head goes may not apply.

[spmurph]

Lately I've been thinking about the movement of the hips in the downswing. Specifically, after the lateral push towards the target. As you turn through the ball what feeling do you want with the hips? Is it more of a pull through by the front side or a push through by the back side.

This video discusses this topic a bit. What do you guys think?

[mc0388]

Jim McLean is exactly why I started trying to eliminate hip turn and create the "x factor." This was probably five years ago and lets say it wasn't one of my best years.

Im not sure how my thread started talks about the X-factor, I'm not trying to create an X-factor swing. Ass opposed to the X-factor swing, it feels as if I start my hips and arms together on the down swing. But, As I indicated on my original post, what this feels like to me and what actually happens may be different.

I'd put it second right behind "shift your weight right on the backswing."

Im also not trying to shift my weight to my right side, Im more like starting with my weight 45/55 (im a righty), I suppose a little weight on the back foot to start the swing, but keeping that weight constant until the top of the backswing.

Iacas I am curious on what you think of this.

[iacas]

Iacas I am curious on what you think of this.

I'm just a golfer, not an instructor. I re-read your first post and I'm not entirely sure I know what you're trying to say.

It sounds like you're trying to resist turning them back, particularly where you said people with bigger hip turns look like a lot of wasted movement. I've come to understand and believe that you want a good amount of hip turn - 45 degrees or so, with the right hip moving up and back (not right, but back away from the ball, towards "behind" you). 45 degrees or so. If you could clarify I might have a bit more to say.

[deronsizemore]

Im not sure how my thread started talks about the X-factor, I'm not trying to create an X-factor swing.Ass opposed to the X-factor swing, it feels as if I start my hips and arms together on the down swing. But, As I indicated on my original post, what this feels like to me and what actually happens may be different.

The thread started talking about the X Factor when you started talking about it when you wrote:

With my current backswing I try to control my hips pointed at the target as I make my shoulder turn. I noticed that this really 'winds' up my torso to deliver a smooth yet powerful downswing. I do realize that my hips do actually rotate clockwise a bit during my backswing, but the conscious effort to keep them facing the target makes it feel as if they haven't moved.

What you outlined above is Jim McClean's X Factor theory.

I apologize, I'll keep my lip off of your thread.

[mc0388]

What you outlined above is Jim McClean's X Factor theory.

Man, I dont care if you comment.

Im really not aware of who Jim McClean is or the X-factor, after a quick internet search, doesn't his theory also include starting your hips before your shoulders to create the X factor? That is something I am not trying to do...

[mc0388]

I'm just a golfer, not an instructor. I re-read your first post and I'm not entirely sure I know what you're trying to say.

Im not opposed to a hip turn. Im just trying to find out why resisting the hips is a bad idea (ie, what swing flaws does it create, if any). To me, controlling the hips, in turn, controls the front knee as well as your torso, which ultimately controls your shoulders then arms.

Hopefully Im not confusing anyone. Iacas, I pointed you out because sometime you have a clear way of explaining things. Just please avoid the S&T; talk

[deronsizemore]

Man, I dont care if you comment.

Sorry I was mainly joking with my comments. The keeping my lip off of your thread was just a "Big Break" term that's popped up here at the forums lately.

Jim McClean's original X Factor was simply the difference between the shoulder turn and the hip turn at the top of the backswing. Unless you actually meant something different what you wrote originally, you basically outlined the original X Factor. You said you're trying to make a conscious effort to not rotate your hips in the backswing, although you realized they rotate some. The attempt to limit the hip rotation and increase the shoulder rotation and "wind up" is creating a difference between the shoulder turn and the hip turn, i.e., the original x factor. The only reason it was brought up was because it's been my experience (and iacas) that this leads to some over the top moves on the down swing because when you limit your hip turn you tend to spin your hips open too quick on the downswing which in turn opens up your shoulders which in turn throws the club out over the top of the swing plane. I've found that you're much better off not trying to greatly limit the hip turn. But yes, you're correct that now Jim McClean's new theory is called the Triple X Factor and I believe one aspect of it has to do with stretching the gap between your shoulder turn and hip turn in the early part of the downswing.

[mc0388]

Sorry I was mainly joking with my comments. The keeping my lip off of your thread was just a "Big Break" term that's popped up here at the forums lately.

Gotcha, Ive watched Big Break, but my son is usually sleeping, so I watch with the volume very low. I didnt catch that...

The only reason it was brought up was because it's been my experience (and iacas) that this leads to some over the top moves on the down swing because when you limit your hip turn you tend to spin your hips open too quick on the downswing which in turn opens up your shoulders which in turn throws the club out over the top of the swing plane. I've found that you're much better off not trying to greatly limit the hip turn.

Would it be safe to say that 'controlling' my hip turn to stay between 30*-45* is ok -VS- 'limiting' hip turn <30* would cause quick hips? Also, the wasted hip/knee movement I was referring to is more evident when one goes beyond 45*...

I play a natural fade. If I am fast, I do pull the ball... PS, I have my swing posted somewhere on this forum (feel free to take a look), Ive worked on posture and a little wider stance since the video was taken.

[deronsizemore]

Gotcha, Ive watched Big Break, but my son is usually sleeping, so I watch with the volume very low. I didnt catch that...

Yeah Blake was ticked because Andrew said soemthing to his ball while it ws still in the air, like "get down... down..." and Blake turns and says "get your lip off my ball, dude." lol

Would it be safe to say that 'controlling' my hip turn to stay between 30*-45* is ok -VS- 'limiting' hip turn

Yeah I think that's safe to say that controlling it and not letting the hip turn get out of hand is OK. You're right, that when your hips turn a lot you have no other choice but to bend your left knee as a result to allow for the turn. Pros like Vijay Singh do this but obviously he's very consistent with it.

I took a look at your swing on the forum. You've got a nice swing. I see a lot of similarities in your swing compared to what I used to do. In an attempt to "transfer" your weight, you're swaying your body back on the backswing. If you notice on your face on video, at address there's a lot of space between your right hip and the black headcover in the Titleist bag in the background. As you swing to the top, that space actually gets smaller because you swayed to the right. A lot of people do this because they don't understand how to properly transfer their weight and pivot around their back leg in the backswing. Believe me, I used to be the worlds worst at swaying because I thought that's how I needed to transfer my weight. Your sway isn't bad, but it's there. It also looks like you have very minimal hip turn because of the swaying. You also mentioned that your head travels laterally in the video. Your head will move laterally ever so slightly with a driver (some people not at all) but with every other club, if you're turning correctly, your head shouldn't move from it's originally position. The more it moves backward in the backswing, the more it will have to move forward in the downswing to get to it's original position and allow you to bring the club back down to contact the ball and not the ground before it. Here's a couple videos that probably explain what should be happening better than I can put it into words here. Hope that helps. Keep in mind, like iacas, I'm not a professional. Just a guy that loves to study the game and the swing. :)

[mc0388]

Yeah Blake was ticked because Andrew said soemthing to his ball while it ws still in the air, like "get down... down..." and Blake turns and says "get your lip off my ball, dude." lol

Thanks for looking at the swing. Since then I have worked on posture and a wider stance. More specifically I have moved my back foot right in my stance. By doing this it gives me a more stable base, and it limits the lateral movement back. Also, it prevents me from over rotating on the follow through.

Im playing Thurs, Fri, and Sat of this week on Hilton Head Island. Ill let my hips come in a little more on my take away and Ill see if that helps with my pulls and consistency. I havent had time to look at the vids you posted, but Ill get to them this week. Thanks again

[deronsizemore]

Thanks for looking at the swing. Since then I have worked on posture and a wider stance. More specifically I have moved my back foot right in my stance. By doing this it gives me a more stable base, and it limits the lateral movement back. Also, it prevents me from over rotating on the follow through.

No problem. One more thing I wanted to add and I'll keep it quick as it sounds like you've changed your swing quite a bit since those vids and I don't want to keep adding on thoughts. But where do you feel your weight at in your backswing? This was something that I had no clue about for probably 20 years. I would try to transfer my weight by swaying and my weight would get to the outside of my right foot (which is wrong). When you weight goes there, it's hard to make the proper pivot and turn of the hips and shoulders. Your weight should be moving to your right heel in your backswing. Getting your weight in your right heel should give you the feeling of being able to turn correctly without the slide/sway.

Good luck.