A Rules dilemma

[iacas]

  Jay-Bird said:

Three total penalty strokes.

Yeah, I'm going to go with the rules official who has scored several 100s on the incredibly difficult USGA exam on this one.

The player declared his ball unplayable. He didn't say "If I'm wrong about where I should play, I'm declaring it unplayable, otherwise I'm just gonna drop the ball." or something like that. Kick ball = 1 stroke. Say "unplayable" = 1 stroke. Play from a wrong place but not a horribly wrong place = 2 strokes. Basically, the guy doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that he was talking about an unplayable only from the rocks. The ball didn't belong in the rocks anyway.

[Jay-Bird]

  iacas said:

Yeah, I'm going to go with the rules official who has scored several 100s on the incredibly difficult USGA exam on this one.

But kicking the ball give precedence to RULE 18-2a. He should have followed the rule - Replace the ball. He did not - and played from the wrong spot - that's it. The ball was NEVER unplayable. His situation had nothing to do with an unplayable lie.

If he would have followed the Rule 18-2a, he would have saved himself the "unplayable" penalty AND the "wrong spot" penalty... But just because he said "unplayable" you say he gets that penalty also? Asinine.

[iacas]

  Jay-Bird said:

But kicking the ball give precedence to RULE 18-2a. He should have followed the rule - Replace the ball. He did not - and played from the wrong spot - that's it. The ball was NEVER unplayable. His situation had nothing to do with an unplayable lie.

You're arguing with a guy who knows the rules really, really, really well. I doubt you're gonna win.

And as far as I know, you can declare your ball unplayable at any time when a ball's in play. He gets an 8. Definitive answer.

[zeg]

  Jay-Bird said:

But kicking the ball give precedence to RULE 18-2a. He should have followed the rule - Replace the ball. He did not - and played from the wrong spot - that's it. The ball was NEVER unplayable. His situation had nothing to do with an unplayable lie.

The ball was unplayable the instant the player deemed it such and put another ball in play (actually, maybe as soon as he deemed it, I'm not 100% sure what the step is that cements that decision). There's no other definition for "unplayable" in the rules of golf, so contemplating whether the ball was actually unplayable or not is impossible---there's no "actual unplayable" concept to use for it.

  None said:

If he would have followed the Rule 18-2a, he would have saved himself the "unplayable" penalty AND the "wrong spot" penalty... But just because he said "unplayable" you say he gets that penalty also? Asinine.

Yeah, it does suck, but it's no surprise that not knowing the rules will hurt your score: there's no rule that says you get a break for being ignorant of them. (Incidentlally, I forgot to add the unplayable penalty in my own calculation when I said 7, so I actually agree that it's either 8 or 6, depending on whether the drop was a legal drop for the correct spot) There are plenty of ways you can cost yourself strokes by using the rules incorrect, so it's not like this is a unique case in that regard. The obvious example is if you don't announce your provision as a being a provisional, you take a penalty---saying (or not saying) a word can be significant.

You can also get lucky---had the drop happened to be legal for where he should have dropped, he'd have avoided the 2 stroke penalty through no fault of his own. You may ask why he gets the break for happening to be in the right place when he seemingly gets penalized for saying a word. My reasoning is that whether the drop is within 2 lengths of the correct spot is a simple question of fact. Either it was or it wasn't. So you can ask whether the player has to specify which rules he's applying as he uses them. I don't think he has to, as long as his actions are consistent with the rules (which he may be asked to explain later to justify his recorded score). But if you do state what rule you're using, IMO you're on the hook for that once you take an action that cannot be "undone," like putting a ball in play. But I don't know exactly, I'd be curious to know from someone who knows whether you have to specify which rule you're using as you're going.

[iacas]

Well put post, zeg. I'd just sent a PM to Jay-Bird which said something like "ignorance is never an excuse." It's the player's fault he declared the ball unplayable and didn't know the rules.

[Ignorant]

  zeg said:

So you can ask whether the player has to specify which rules he's applying as he uses them. I don't think he has to, as long as his actions are consistent with the rules (which he may be asked to explain later to justify his recorded score). But if you do state what rule you're using, IMO you're on the hook for that once you take an action that cannot be "undone," like putting a ball in play. But I don't know exactly, I'd be curious to know from someone who knows whether you have to specify which rule you're using as you're going.

This is a fair question and Dec 18-2a/3 gives some guidance. It says that once a player states he is acting upon a Rule he cannot avoid a penalty for applying an incorrect Rule by going behind another Rule. This is also supported by Dec 34-3/6 (sorry, do not know how to attach them here).

IMO a player does not have to declare which Rule he is applying unless it is not clear from the conditions. In such a case the player is responsible for his actions (well, as always...) and if someone questions his acts he must be able to assign a Rule he was acting upon. At that point he'd better have chosen right...

[iacas]

Someone from USGA sent an email and said 7. This contradicts the official who said 8 before. I'll see what the guy at the link I posted above has to say about the email the USGA sent.