Tim Finchem should be worried

[mjtoal]

My dear Berkshire lad, have you ever actually played TP South?

I have played both the South and the North. Neither are in my top 5 courses in San Diego County.

As for golf in Surrey/Berks/Oxon, where to start? Sunningdale, The Berkshire, Hankley Common, West Hill, Woking, Worplesdon, Walton Heath are all magnificent sandbelt courses and open to the public. If you know someone who can get you on, Swinley Forest is a classic shorter course, and in Oxon, Huntercombe is a classic old style course with a few design quirks.

[Acropo]

Why did Sunningdale get dropped (fond memories)? It was a fixture back in the day.

I think there were two primary reasons. First, along with many other older courses, it isn't long enough for today's golfers - the New Course, the longer of the two, is just over 6700 yards. Second, Wentworth is only a few miles away and, until a couple of years ago, it was already hosting two big events - the PGA Championship (now the BMW Championship) and the Piccadilly/Suntory/HSBC World Matchplay. One more event in the area would have been going to the well too often, I suspect - even the European Open when it was held at the London Club, which is in Kent, struggled to attract a really big crowd and sponsor support. Third, I'm not 100% sure Sunningdale has the infrastructure and facilities to support a tour event - although it seemed to deal well with the British Women's Open a few years ago. The lovely Clubhouse is too small, I think, there is no hotel on-site, etc, etc. Those things can be dealt with, quite easily, but the Wentworth effect probably stuffed it. It is a lovely course, though, no question - possibility of seriously low scores if you get it right and serious embarrassment if you get it wrong in the slightest!

[MSchott]

Correct me if I am mistaken but I thought the premise is that the PGA Tour (not the PGA as such) should be worried that it is no longer streets ahead and pre-eminent and that the European Tour is getting stronger at just the same time that the sponsorship Dollars are getting harder to come by. One can agree or disagree if that is something to concern Mr Finchem but the PGA Tour's wealth and viewing figures have been built around one man and there does not, at the moment, seem to be a clearly-defined Plan B. Is it something for Finchem to be worried about or should he embrace the growth of the game across the world?

You make some valid points but picking nits does not help your case. Yes we are talking about the PGA Tour that plays many great classic courses in the US and there is a very important non PGA Tour tournament played annually at Augusta National. But until the European Tour stops playing tournaments at totally fabricated courses like those in Dubai (although I loved the bunkering) and gets rid of the amateurish advertising signs all over the courses it will have a second rate look and feel. In the US the European Tour is the minor leagues of golf to most. Once you get past the very talented Kaymer, Westwood, Poulter, McDowell and a few others, the players are as anonymous as many on the PGA Tour.

[Acropo]

...gets rid of the amateurish advertising signs...

I thought we were talking about golf courses, not advertising hoardings - the style and presentation of which are often indications of cultural background and preferences in graphic design, in any case.

In the US the European Tour is the minor leagues of golf to most.

Oh, we know that but we are often (being European) far too polite to point out the lack of knowledge that seems to be an unfortunate characteristic of a significant number of our cousins across the Pond. Have a care, lest you unleash a torrent of an unwelcome response!

The argument used to be that, if you wanted to play the best in the world you had to go to the PGA Tour - and that argument held a lot of water. With six of today's top 12 and 9 of the top 20 primarily European Tour players (and another three part-time ET players) the argument does not sound so convincing. And less so after last weekend's Dubai World Championship season-ender - I can't think we have seen a better-quality field outside the usual suspects (Majors, WGCs, possibly TPC). The quality and strength in depth of the European Tour looked pretty good to most, I would venture. "Not bad for a number 2...", as Mark Webber said as he streaked across the line to win the British Grand Prix earlier this year, leaving his more highly-rated team-mate floundering in his wake.

[shades9323]

What six of the top 12 are primarily Euro players? I only count 3. Westwood, Kaymer, and McIlroy are the only ones I see going forward. And only 5 of the top 20 will be primarily Euro tour players(Molinari's).

[Acropo]

What six of the top 12 are primarily Euro players? I only count 3. Westwood, Kaymer, and McIlroy are the only ones I see going forward. And only 5 of the top 20 will be primarily Euro tour players(Molinari's).

Best have a look at this week's rankings, then.

Westwood Kaymer Poulter Donald McIlroy McDowell Then we have: F Molinari Karlsson E Molinari Three part-timers: Casey (famously, given his failure to gain an automatic Ryder Cup place) Ernie Els Goosen I think that adds up to 6, 9 and 3, as I said. One could also add Adam Scott with the last three but I'm not sure he played enough events - there may have been an injury earlier this year. Anyway, one won't push that aprticular point.

[shades9323]

Best have a look at this week's rankings, then.

Poulter,Donald,McDowell, and Karlsson are all full time PGA tour members for 2011. While they may have status on both tours, they will play more in the States(making them primarily PGA tour players). So you were incorrect saying that they were primarily Euro tour players.

[Acropo]

Poulter,Donald,McDowell, and Karlsson are all full time PGA tour members for 2011. While they may have status on both tours, they will play more in the States(making them primarily PGA tour players). So you were incorrect saying that they were primarily Euro tour players.

I'm afraid I can't find Robert Karlsson on the PGA Tour players list at all - maybe you can?

McDowell has just joined the PGA Tour, after winning the US Open and thus gaining a 5-year exemption; in 2010 he was primarily on the European Tour - he played just 10 events on the PGA Tour this year, seven of which will be accounted for by Majors/WGCs. He will have to play the 16 on the PGA Tour to keep his card of course but I don't have details of the rest of his schedule for 2011 - perhaps you do? Poulter plays both Tours but was primarily European Tour until getting his house in Florida and moving . He remains offically Woburn Golf Club's touring pro and has made no announcement of giving up his European Tour card - as far as I'm aware but perhaps you know something? I know he's keen on Orlando Magic but his heart beats to an Arsenal rhythm and, as they say, you can take the boy out of Arsenal but you can't take the Arsenal out of the man... Luke Donald has played primarily on the PGA Tour, agreed, but played a bit more in Europe this year than for some time before and his earnings for this year add up to about $2 million (€1.67 million), which isn't too bad a bag of swag to take home. He had quite a good year, with a W and three other top 3s. With the exception of 2008 (wrist problem?) he plays enough events to keep his card. The four of them have played in the same field at the Majors and all four WGCs, including the HSBC in Shanghai (not yet ranked on the PGA Tour - perhaps because it isn't in the US?); the Dubai World Championship and the BMW PGA Championship. Three of them played in the Middle-East swing - not Donald, although Casey did. I think maybe his wrist was still a problem. So the best place to see them all playing in the same field appears to be on the European Tour. Or have I missed something?

[MSchott]

It's not the style of the signs it's how ubiquitous they are. The shots of the 18th green showed the sign in the background coming out of the water so it could not be missed. Frankly that is tacky and second rate. Then there are signs in the rough where you see them on approach shots. I'm sorry but again that is second rate. Until the European Tour changes this it will always play second fiddle. It's bad enough the players on all tours are decked out like billboards but signs in the rough? Abominable. You see some of this on the US tour but it's not as in your face.

[whatwhatwhat]

It's not the style of the signs it's how ubiquitous they are. The shots of the 18th green showed the sign in the background coming out of the water so it could not be missed. Frankly that is tacky and second rate. Then there are signs in the rough where you see them on approach shots. I'm sorry but again that is second rate. Until the European Tour changes this it will always play second fiddle. It's bad enough the players on all tours are decked out like billboards but signs in the rough? Abominable. You see some of this on the US tour but it's not as in your face.

US golf advertising not in your face??? AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA Im in tears!!!! Firstly Id like to say at the moment the uspga is ahead no doubt, but the advertising is waaaaaaaaay worse, every 5 seconds.........The MET LIFE BLIMP.....MET LIFE FOR THE IF IN LIFE!!.....or the konica minolta bishub swing vision camera folks!!!! I dont think you could have picked a more wrong reason hahaha brillant that made my day thank you!!

[Chas]

Somehow I don't think that the locations of signs, as obnoxious as they may be, are the main point here. Unless I'm badly mistaken I thought we were talking goff ...

Me, I recall the days when american freeways were encrusted with the ugliest and largest of billboards, seemingly everywhere (pre-Lady Bird). Yet said freeways were far and away the best conduits the world had ever seen (excepting certain autobahns of course). I'm talking pre-M3, -M4 and other -M's.

Acropo: your points are very entertaining and highly informative to boot. As someone of mid-Atlantic sensibilities in the matter might I suggest that the golfing world may currently be experiencing a brief moment of European efflorescence, soon to be thrown into deepest shadow (OK, it's a mixed metaphor) by a resurgent TW and various young guns* sharpening their weapons Stateside.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Were I still living in the Bristol area, or in the environs of Sunningdale/Wentworth as I once was, I might be singing a different tune entirely.

For Pete's sake chaps it's all good. Vive la difference!!

*hmmm, maybe that isn't such a good line to follow.