S&T vs. Foley - Differences and Similarities

[oc1001]

Iacas:

I'm not sure if Sandtrap accepted my last response post so I'll try posting again.

1) This presume I am standing straight up by I'm not.  I bend forward at the hips, keep my back straight, and take a traditional setup.  Using the pole analogy, the pole goes through the top of my head, down through my torso, and touches the ground behind me.  That's what I feel I am turning around.  As I do so, my shoulders turn on a downward angle towards the ground.  If I try to turn my shoulders more horizontal to the ground, I feel tightness and pain in my right back near the shoulder.  The pain disappears if I turn my shoulders on a natural downward plane.  This is consistent with Sean's instruction to turn your shoulders on a steeper plane.

2) "Right temple" is a common description for the right temporal bone.  I was using the "right temple" term because I presume that most people reading this forum are not doctors.  I apologize for my erroneous presumption.

Finally, I would like to point out a distinction between S&T; and Foley's method that most people overlook.  I have read the S&T; book and noted the backswing requires a straightening of the right leg, which results in the spine tilting towards the target, thereby providing the "tilt" part of the backswing.  Under Foley's method, you don't straighten the right leg but keep it rather flexed.  This allows me to keep my centered position.

A great illustration is swinging on an upside down Bosu ball.  If straighten my right left, my sternum and ultimately my weight shifts to the left.  However, since I am standing on an uneven platform, I lose my balance and fall to my left. By keeping a flexed right leg, I am able to complete my backswing without falling off the ball.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by oc1001

1) Using the pole analogy, the pole goes through the top of my head, down through my torso, and touches the ground behind me.  That's what I feel I am turning around.

Yes, that's all fine. I wanted to clear that up because you specifically said a "vertical" pole. That's very different than what you just described, which I mostly agree with.

Originally Posted by oc1001

2) "Right temple" is a common description for the right temporal bone. I was using the "right temple" term because I presume that most people reading this forum are not doctors. I apologize for my erroneous presumption.

Yes, I misunderstood what you were saying here (a few more details would have been helpful!). You mean the drill wherein someone else holds the grip of a club or a stick or something to your head. Okay.

Originally Posted by oc1001

Finally, I would like to point out a distinction between S&T; and Foley's method that most people overlook.  I have read the S&T; book and noted the backswing requires a straightening of the right leg, which results in the spine tilting towards the target, thereby providing the "tilt" part of the backswing.  Under Foley's method, you don't straighten the right leg but keep it rather flexed.  This allows me to keep my centered position.

People don't "overlook" this because you've misread it. In no way does your spine actually "tilt towards the target" in the S&T; backswing. Foley wants the exact same tilting (towards the golf ball, to maintain your inclination to the ground) as S&T; does and Foley does indeed advocate decreasing the flex in the right knee on the backswing. Absolutely.

"Straighten" does not mean "lock out." It means "decrease the flex" when we're talking about the golf swing here.

Simply put, there's no other way to turn your hips on their inclined plane without the right knee lessening the flex. The distance from the ground (your ankle) to your hip grows, so your leg has to "straighten" to accommodate that.

Originally Posted by oc1001

A great illustration is swinging on an upside down Bosu ball.  If straighten my right left, my sternum and ultimately my weight shifts to the left.  However, since I am standing on an uneven platform, I lose my balance and fall to my left. By keeping a flexed right leg, I am able to complete my backswing without falling off the ball.

That's inaccurate. Your hips are set on an inclined plane and turn in a circle around that inclined plane. Your right hip moves up, behind, and towards the target. Your left hip moves down, forward, and away from the target. You can maintain your balance just fine (though your arms will move if you're simulating a backswing, and that can move some weight around as they aren't weightless).

[oc1001]

Originally Posted by iacas

"People don't "overlook" this because you've misread it. In no way does your spine actually "tilt towards the target" in the S&T; backswing. Foley wants the exact same tilting (towards the golf ball, to maintain your inclination to the ground) as S&T; does and Foley does indeed advocate decreasing the flex in the right knee on the backswing. Absolutely."

But that's not what I see in the Stack & Tilt book. I forgot what page it is, but there is a picture showing the backswing from behind. The author drew a line in the middle of the back, starting from the waist up to the shoulder. The line slants to the left. This image, in conjunction with the straightening of the right knee, demonstrated to me as the customer that as I make my circular backswing and straighten my right leg, my spine slants to the left and I achieve the "tilt" part of the swing.

Now if I got the wrong impression from the picture and misinterpreted the instrucction, isn't the burden on the S&T; authors to provide a different explanation? After all, they are in better position to explain what I need to be doing.

Additionally, you state that Foley does indeed advocate decreasing the flex in the right knee on the backswing. But That's not what I take from his instruction. From his Golf Digest lecture on the On Demand, Foley states that as you make your centered backswing, you'll feel the muscles in your right leg contract and put pressure into the ground.  When I put this into practice, my right leg ends up staying relatively flexed. And when I'm in this position, I feel like I am in a better position to make the transition from the backswing to the downswing.  This instruction, along with the other ones he presents, has helped me achieve better ball striking.

Now do both Foley's and S&T;'s teaching methods actually achieve the same movement? I'm not a golf professional but if we presume Foley "stole" from S&T;, then the answer would be yes.  However, the most effective method in explaining this movement to me as the customer was Foley's terminology and not the S&T; terminology.

[iacas]

Merging the posts from the old thread over here...

This thread can now be the home to the "differences" that people want to discuss. If they can find any. ;-)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by oc1001

But that's not what I see in the Stack & Tilt book. I forgot what page it is, but there is a picture showing the backswing from behind. The author drew a line in the middle of the back, starting from the waist up to the shoulder. The line slants to the left. This image, in conjunction with the straightening of the right knee, demonstrated to me as the customer that as I make my circular backswing and straighten my right leg, my spine slants to the left and I achieve the "tilt" part of the swing.

Unless I missed it after looking at every picture in the book (twice), you're misremembering. There's no such image. In fact, I think there's only one image in the book in which a player's (Andy's) spine tilts towards the target, and it's in the ABCD spectrum in photo D, which they say is NOT what they want.

The "tilt" part of the swing is NOT towards the target. It's towards the golf ball at P4 and it's a key part (along with the hip slant) in maintaining the inclination, turning your shoulders in a circle, etc.

Originally Posted by oc1001

Now if I got the wrong impression from the picture and misinterpreted the instrucction, isn't the burden on the S&T; authors to provide a different explanation? After all, they are in better position to explain what I need to be doing.

They do explain this. Given what you've just posted, I have little faith you've actually read the book.

In talking about the left tilt, they say (among much else about it, as it's a big point) "This is difficult for some golfers to recognize because they are usually seeing the swing from a single angle. When viewed face-on, the spine stays vertical during the backswing and, therefore, no tilt to the left is visible ." (Because it's towards the viewer, who is in line with the golf ball from a face-on angle).

So unless the image you saw displayed someone doing it incorrectly (and it wasn't in the book, I'm 99% sure), you've gotten bad information elsewhere. And I'm still fairly certain you've not read the book. Flipped through it at a Barnes & Noble, maybe.

Originally Posted by oc1001

Additionally, you state that Foley does indeed advocate decreasing the flex in the right knee on the backswing. But That's not what I take from his instruction.

Sure, but if "what you take" is different than what he's saying, we can't really have a conversation. You apparently "take" that S&T; wants you tilted towards the target, and that's not correct, so we can't really talk about it except for me to say "that's not correct" and show you that you've "misremembered." Foley absolutely believes in the right knee decreasing flex on the backswing. His DVD talks about the hips turning, and the only way you can turn the hips is to let the right knee straighten. Go ahead - try to turn your hips while maintaining the same knee flex. Can't be done. If you make a centered shoulder and turn your hips your knee will lose flex.

You're right, he doesn't explain it in the video, but one of my criticisms is that the "instructional content" in his DVD is about 12:00, and a good chunk of that is just unnecessary words, so he doesn't get to it, but he certainly believes in it and teaches it.

Right Knee Straightens to Allow Hip Turn (YouTube video)

Straightening the Right Knee on the Backswing (Forum Thread)

Sean Foley, pretty straight looking right leg here... (biomechanically required to be less flexed given the hip slants):

Originally Posted by oc1001

From his Golf Digest lecture on the On Demand, Foley states that as you make your centered backswing, you'll feel the muscles in your right leg contract and put pressure into the ground.  When I put this into practice, my right leg ends up staying relatively flexed. And when I'm in this position, I feel like I am in a better position to make the transition from the backswing to the downswing.  This instruction, along with the other ones he presents, has helped me achieve better ball striking.

I don't know precisely what "relatively flexed" is. I specifically said not "lock out" or fully straighten. So if you're talking about "maintaining some flex," then I'm not sure how that's different than what I'm saying: that the right knee loses flex, retains a little, and doesn't "lock out" or fully straighten.

What muscles in your leg "contract"? The answer is your quads... and guess what they do? They decrease the flex in your knee or "straighten" the leg...

Originally Posted by oc1001

However, the most effective method in explaining this movement to me as the customer was Foley's terminology and not the S&T; terminology.

Be honest, did you even read the S&T; book? Because it certainly contains more than 12 minutes of instruction, and it doesn't have any of the things you seem to have "taken" from it...

I'm going to move these posts into a new thread.

[cbrian]

Differences that I'm aware of include:

Where to feel pressure in the backswing: S&T; is progressively increasing in the left foot whereas Foley likes to feel some in the right leg. Transitions are pretty much exactly the same.

Set up with the driver: With S&T; weight can be more forward. Foley says weight can be more back. Basically (IMO) boiling down into a disagreement on how to preset axis tilt and why. However, I do think I've seen Mike and Andy's guys with the upper center more back than prescribed.

Post impact: Probably one of the more glaring differences. Foley doesn't seem to think that post impact matters... or at least thats what I've seen from his players (arms flying off, higher rate of closure, etc).

Hip slide: Foley doesn't seem to care about the hips continuing to push forward.

Some of that is debatable... he has done an extremely poor job of explaining his thoughts on the swing to the public. Just some things I have picked up from watching his players and picking through some of his material.

[motteler621]

From what Ive seen Foley does teach somewhat of a lateral hip move into the ball. He basically wants your leading thigh over your leading foot at impact and your center point of chest to stay in place. To me theres only so far you can go foward with your hips when you keep your center point of your chest over the ball/centered in place and your leading foot planted.

[cbrian]

Well yea, he obviously teaches hip slide. However, he doesn't teach as much as S&T.;

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by cbrian

Well yea, he obviously teaches hip slide. However, he doesn't teach as much as S&T.;

yea, from what you wrote I think you gave a pretty good breakdown of the differences. The slight feeling in the inner back leg on the backswing Im not too into. To me its not really nessasary to try to get this feeling.

[iacas]

FWIW the "thoughts" from others out there on this are:

• Setup and backswing 100% the same. Relatively easy to teach, though.
• Driver setup not significantly different.
• Foley doesn't understand a lot of the pieces on the downswing. Sliding the hips forward, sure, but little else.

The latter one explains why Tiger's too closed at P6 and P7 right now and a few other things.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by iacas

The latter one explains why Tiger's too closed at P6 and P7 right now and a few other things.

It's interesting that you say this because I was second guessing my thoughts when I saw some highlights from Dubai and notcied has closed he was.

Would you say that this is the reason why he has been blocking shots the last couple of tournaments?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Would you say that this is the reason why he has been blocking shots the last couple of tournaments?

In a word, yes, but that's not really the topic here... so I don't want to go off on issues Tiger may fix in two weeks or something.