Master Teeing Off With an Iron Thread

[winders]

Uh, I do. That was the whole point of my earlier post (1st response in this thread.) Pinching the ball between the club and the turf will give you more backspin and a different trajectory than if the ball is teed up too high. At least, that's what dozens of books, internet sites, and personal experience tells me.

Watch the "ball view" high speed video of any Tour Pro hitting an iron off a tee or the grass and you will see that the first thing a ball does when hit by an iron is move upwards. The ball is not pinched against the ground.

Think about it. If the ball was pinched against the ground, what would happen when it was wet? Or in the rough? The loft of iron face guarantees that the ball must move skyward and not pinch against the ground. Look how high some Pros tee a ball up on a par 3. Some of them are a good 1/2" off the ground. They get as much or more spin compared to a ball on the grass. Read what Jack Nicklaus wrote again. The whole concept of properly compressing the ball has to do with having the proper swing path into the ball, not pinching it into the ground. That is a visual concept, not reality. S-

[bogeyme]

I've only not teed a ball up on a par 3 a couple of times. I just don't like the idea of possibly taking a huge divot and really screwing up my tee shot.

[Dave24309]

I always tee up on par 3s. I'd tee up every shot if the rules allowed it. Wait a minute - not greens.

[sacm3bill]

Think about it. If the ball was pinched against the ground, what would happen when it was wet? Or in the rough?

It would not pinch and therefore have different flight characteristics. There is always backspin on the ball by virtue of the lofted club face as you say, but from what I understand, pinching it provides more.

Read what Jack Nicklaus wrote again.

Yeah, I've read that. I've also read these:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...he.html?cat=14 http://www.golfswingguru.com/rss/article12.htm http://www.learnaboutgolf.com/beginn..._Backspin.html http://www.ezinearticles.com/?How-To...Ball&id;=160717 They all talk about the specific principle of pinching the ball between the club and the turf. What's your take on the info in those sites? Totally bogus? Certainly we can't believe everything we read on the internet, but there does seem to be some consensus there. Nicklaus was talking about using a tee so as not to get pieces of grass between your club and the ball. Doesn't mean the pinching effect can't still happen if the ball is low enough. And apparently Tiger believes in pinching. From http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio.../tigertip_0806 : "A lot of high-handicappers don't understand the concept of trapping the ball between the clubface and the ground... The shaft must be leaning toward the target through impact for the clubface to pinch the ball and produce a divot on the forward side."

[goblue107501]

I will always tee my ball on a par three, unless I am using some sort of wedge. I have never hit a shot and thought that the ball flew differently because I caught the tee with the club. I have found that I am able to get a few more yards with a club from having it on a tee.

I once heard Lee Trevino say that the tee box is the only spot on the course where you are allowed to use a tee, so you might as well take advantage of it.

[Uber$winG]

Jack said it best, about teeing-up on a par three, “Air offers a lot less resistance than dirt does.” Of course, I’m paraphrasing here, but the point is that it just makes perfect sense to tee it up. It makes sense to practice this on the range too. Also, I think that you will find it easier both to draw and fade the ball when you tee it up.

[winders]

sacm3bill,

Explain the physics of how a lofted iron face can do anything other than hit the ball up? It can't. The concept of hitting down into the ball is made clearer when you use the visual image of pinching the ball against the turf. That's all it is: a visual image. It is not reality.

The only way the golf ball could be pinched against the ground is if the effective loft of the iron was zero degrees or less at impact. Irons certainly are de-lofted at impact when hitting down on the ball, but not that much.

S-

[sacm3bill]

Explain the physics of how a lofted iron face can do anything other than hit the ball up?

We are in violent agreement on that. The point I'm trying to make is pinching it off the turf adds an additional element of backspin and a resulting change in ball flight and stopping characteristics.

Please read the links I posted as it doesn't sound like you have. It's pretty clear to me that when Tiger says "...trapping the ball between the clubface and the ground...", and when the other sites talk about pinching as well, they're talking about a physical reality, not just a visual image to aid in hitting down.

[Aetsh]

I tee up at every box. On shorter par threes, I just push it wayyyyyyy far down, haha

[Bump-n-MI]

Depends on the tee-box conditions. If they are the consistency of a fluffy fairway I will not use a tee, if the boxes are a little tighter then I'll use one.

[winders]

We are in violent agreement on that. The point I'm trying to make is pinching it off the turf adds an additional element of backspin and a resulting change in ball flight and stopping characteristics.

Look at the high speed videos. As soon as the club hits the ball, it is moving up and forward. If the ball was actually pinched between the iron face and the ground, the first move the ball would make is down and forward. It does not so no pinching is actually happening.

The key to spin is hitting down on the ball. You could tee the ball six inches in the air and as long as you hit down on it, it will spin the same as if it were right on the ground. I don't care what Tiger (or anyone else for that matter) thinks is happening. All he would have to do is look at some high speed video to show him what is actually happening. S-

[sacm3bill]

Look at the high speed videos. As soon as the club hits the ball, it is moving up and forward. If the ball was actually pinched between the iron face and the ground, the first move the ball would make is down and forward. It does not so no pinching is actually happening.

It's not that simple. I'd like to see the videos you're talking about, but here's one I found:

If you frame advance on the first clip (driver with rubber tee), you'll see that at impact the ball deforms such that its vertical axis is longer than its horizontal. The vertical elongation means it's applying force against whatever is below it.

[winders]

Look here:









Notice that is none of these videos does the ball do anything but go forward and up. If the balls were on the ground instead of on a tee, they would do the same thing, go forward and up. There is no pinching between the ground and the ball. It is a visual concept that has no basis in reality but gets the point across well in instruction.

S-

[kafka01]

Maybe the saying "pinching it against the turf" helps these guys striking down on the ball and it might feel on correct shots as if you trap the ball - but judging from the videos, its just not gonna happen.

[sacm3bill]

Notice that is none of these videos does the ball do anything but go forward and up.

When have I ever claimed something different would happen? They go forward and up if they're pinched too, just with more backspin and different flight characteristics. [Is there an echo in here?]

Ok, first I cite a number of sources that talk about pinching the ball, including Tiger Woods saying "A lot of high-handicappers don't understand the concept of trapping the ball between the clubface and the ground", and all you can come up with is "I don't care what they think, including Tiger." So I give you a high-resolution, close-up, high frame rate video that clearly shows the downward deformity of the ball and explain how that causes it to rebound off the turf. (Oh and btw, in that video you can even see how the rubber tee is briefly bent down by the downward force of the deformity of the ball.) You come back with low-res, far away, barely-higher-than-standard frame rate video that shows absolutely nothing, and claim they somehow support your point. Oh well, I tried.

[winders]

sacm3bill,

You are a riot. You use a driver video to try and back up your position regarding irons shots and pinching the ball against the ground.

Your point about the ball shape changing when the driver hits it is off base. Look at the video with Tiger. Where does his 2 iron hit the ball? Well BELOW the equator. More lofted irons would hit even lower on the ball. This means any distortion of the ball will not be directed perpendicular (right angle) to the ground. Instead it will be at some acute angle. Regardless of the angle of the distortion the ball would have to be on concrete for it to have effect.

Look, grass is relatively soft. For a ball to be "pinched" between the club face and grass, the ball would have to be pressed down, noticeably on high speed video, into the grass. That just doesn't happen. It is easy to see in the videos I provided that the ball is not pinched. Even with a 2 iron which has the least loft in all the videos.

Balls hit off tees and balls hit off a hard tight lie don't have different flight characteristics if the club face strikes the ball at the same angle, the same speed, and the same spot on the club face.

How can a ball be pinched when the point of impact is well below the equator of the ball??? Physics says the ball must move forward and up at the same time. No pinching!

Why do lots of people use the "pinched" metaphor? Maybe because that is what golfers thought was happening. High speed video is a relatively new tool for the golfer. Regardless, the "pinched" metaphor is an excellent way to get a point across to someone that does not understand the concept of hitting down on the ball.

S-

[sacm3bill]

sacm3bill,

Think about it. If the ball deforms downward even with an

upward driver swing, it will obviously deform at least as much downward with a downward iron swing.

Your point about the ball shape changing when the driver hits it is off base. Look at the video with Tiger. Where does his 2 iron hit the ball? Well BELOW the equator... How can a ball be pinched when the point of impact is well below the equator of the ball???

The driver in the video hits the ball below the equator too. The ball still deforms

downwardly . Your incessant cries of "But physics says...!" ignores the physics relating to the elasticity of the ball.

[winders]

This is my last post in response to sacm3bill....

sacm3bill,

You need to understand what is being said in the paragraph:

"Your point about the ball shape changing when the driver hits it is off base. Look at the video with Tiger. Where does his 2 iron hit the ball? Well BELOW the equator. More lofted irons would hit even lower on the ball. This means any distortion of the ball will not be directed perpendicular (right angle) to the ground. Instead it will be at some acute angle. Regardless of the angle of the distortion the ball would have to be on concrete for it to have effect."

How the ball distorts in directly related to where the force is applied to the ball. The closer the force is applied to the south pole of the ball, the less the distortion is towards the ground. Also, club head speed is quite a bit less with irons so the distortion will be quite a bit less with irons than with a driver.

I have provided all the evidence a reasonable person needs to show that golf balls are not pinched against the ground on iron shots by Tour Pros. At the angle the iron comes into the ball, combined with the loft of iron, makes it impossible for the ball to be pinched against the ground.

Just look at the first and last videos.....

S-