Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 5292 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted


Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Any good places for on-line lessons? I am in NO WAY interested in Stack and Tilt...

Thanks

Why is that? You're not interested in getting better?

Paging ICAS.... He's going to ask you "why?". And he'll be right. You probably don't know what it is.

People on this site have had good success with evolvr.com . I think someone else advertises on this site but based on some of the advice they've given I'd be leery of them. I offer online lessons but only to my part-time resident students and I think a lot of instructors do that.

"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations." - And no, I'm not Mac. Please do not PM me about it. I just think he is a crazy MFer and we could all use a little more crazy sometimes.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

I have really no science to back up why, I just know that some of the guys who I have played with who use stack and tilt are awesome from 160-170 yards in. But outside of that it just seems to be very inconsistent. But that is just my observation.

Phil, why do you prefer stack and tilt?

Thanks


  • Administrator
Posted

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

I have really no science to back up why, I just know that some of the guys who I have played with who use stack and tilt are awesome from 160-170 yards in. But outside of that it just seems to be very inconsistent. But that is just my observation.

Phil, why do you prefer stack and tilt?

I can't answer the second question at Phil, but I'd suggest perhaps doing a little research before you form opinions. If you have no reasons or "science" why then I'd be hesitant to form an opinion.

The players we instruct find that S&T; works for all clubs, and many are particularly bad drivers that will tell us their driver becomes their favorite club. Of the guys you have played with who use S&T;, how many have worked with qualified instructors? I see a lot of people doing things wrong after reading the books or watching the DVDs. They'll exaggerate things they were already doing, and that can result in trouble.

Phil recommended a service, Evolvr , that I helped to create and frankly I think you should give it a try. It's inexpensive and several other members of this forum can attest to the fact that it works. Ask uttexas how well he's hitting his driver.

SwingPal advertises here too but as I've never seen videos from them I can't really attest to their capabilities.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted


Originally Posted by iacas

I can't answer the second question at Phil, but I'd suggest perhaps doing a little research before you form opinions. If you have no reasons or "science" why then I'd be hesitant to form an opinion.

The players we instruct find that S&T; works for all clubs, and many are particularly bad drivers that will tell us their driver becomes their favorite club. Of the guys you have played with who use S&T;, how many have worked with qualified instructors? I see a lot of people doing things wrong after reading the books or watching the DVDs. They'll exaggerate things they were already doing, and that can result in trouble.

Phil recommended a service, Evolvr, that I helped to create and frankly I think you should give it a try. It's inexpensive and several other members of this forum can attest to the fact that it works. Ask uttexas how well he's hitting his driver.

SwingPal advertises here too but as I've never seen videos from them I can't really attest to their capabilities.


I really should not call it an opinion, and you are spot on to the fact that they started doing this after watching videos on youtube, so they had no formal training. And when I ask how it works they simply say to put all your weight on the front leg and turn around it...

I hit good shots, but I know that I use very little or no lower body to start my swing. I start with my shoulders and I turn back thru with my shoulders. I actually swing very lazy. Oh, and I am all arms! Which is why I believe that I have a very bad bend in my lead arm at the top of the back swing.


Posted


Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

I think someone else advertises on this site but based on some of the advice they've given I'd be leery of them.


For the record, you're talking about me and I'm NOT one of the instructors on the Swingpal network. I'm just a decent amateur who enjoys reading about the golf swing, and I probably should have made that clear. I was trying to do nothing more than get involved in the discussion on the boards in an effort to be a part of the community here, so it would be a mistake to indict the company I work for based on the fact that you disagree with some of my personal thoughts on the golf swing. As for the company I work for, the product is rock solid, we have excellent instructors and I guarantee you that you'll be hearing a lot about us in the future. Thanks.


  • Administrator
Posted

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

I really should not call it an opinion, and you are spot on to the fact that they started doing this after watching videos on youtube, so they had no formal training. And when I ask how it works they simply say to put all your weight on the front leg and turn around it...

Yeah... that's not really how it works. Weight is pretty centered on the backswing, then - as with all good players - goes forward on the downswing. It's basically a one-plane swing with a centered pivot rather than a large move OFF the golf ball.


Originally Posted by CuppedTin

I hit good shots, but I know that I use very little or no lower body to start my swing. I start with my shoulders and I turn back thru with my shoulders. I actually swing very lazy. Oh, and I am all arms! Which is why I believe that I have a very bad bend in my lead arm at the top of the back swing.


Bending the lead arm adds a lever. If you wanted to design a swing for the most power, you'd add that piece in, because more levels equals more potential speed.

However, in most swings, that particular lever is sacrificed because it harms consistency/accuracy so much.

If you want to keep the arm straight, just feel that your TRAIL arm never bends. That's one way to do it. You bend the lead arm because the trail arm OVER-bends. Look up the thread on the Swing Extender if you'd like.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 5292 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.