Club Declared "Out of Play" Prior to Start of Round

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Final decision: it's really not. Start a new thread if there's more to discuss on the topic of "advice." This thread is about a club being declared out of play.

Actually this thread is about a club being declared out of play "before the start of a round" (your words in your original post).  As such, discussion of what constitutes the "start of a round" would seem to be relevant and/or of interest to some people. Sean's original question re. "advice prior to the round starting", and the follow-up posts on that topic, I think have served well to highlight the significance of that definition with respect to the "club being declared out of play" topic.

That's not to say I intend to pursue the "advice" topic further, rather it is my defense for originally doing so.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Actually this thread is about a club being declared out of play "before the start of a round" (your words in your original post).  As such, discussion of what constitutes the "start of a round" would seem to be relevant and/or of interest to some people.

I agree.

But "clubs declared" is the independent topic, and "prior to start of round" is the dependent concept. Discussion about advice would shift to discussing the dependent piece.

[jshots]

Sheesh you guys are impossible to argue with. I agree with you now on when your round starts, I had not been able to find it before(not that i looked very hard). Whats the point of the thread without a counter argument.

I'm still not 100% convinced you couldn't argue that your declaration goes into effect in a similar way that where you put your tee does when you make your first stroke. If the declaration was the tee, then when you put the tee into the ground (the tee of course being of legal length), the tee being the declaration of your club being out of play, and when the tee goes.................

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jshots

Sheesh you guys are impossible to argue with. I agree with you now on when your round starts, I had not been able to find it before(not that i looked very hard). Whats the point of the thread without a counter argument.

We're "impossible to argue with" because we're right. :-P What do you want?

The point of the thread was to make sure that my reasons for telling my friend he was wrong were the correct reasons.

Originally Posted by jshots

I'm still not 100% convinced you couldn't argue that your declaration goes into effect in a similar way that where you put your tee does when you make your first stroke. If the declaration was the tee, then when you put the tee into the ground (the tee of course being of legal length), the tee being the declaration of your club being out of play, and when the tee goes.................

You could argue it. You did, after all! :-) You'd still be wrong.

The round begins and the applicable Rules of Golf "start" when you make a stroke. Nothing happens when you put a tee in the ground.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by iacas

The round begins and the applicable Rules of Golf "start" when you make a stroke. Nothing happens when you put a tee in the ground.

Sorry, Erik, I'm being petty now, but I do this solely in order not to nullify some of the previous posts.

Some Rules are in force already before the stipulated round begins, e.g. Time of Starting (R6-3a) and Practice (7-1). Then again, all those Rules that have anything to do with player's actions during stipulated round are in force only after a player has made his first stroke at his ball.

[KARR2001]

Here are the rules in question:

4-4a: Selection and Addition of Clubs which states "The player must NOT start a stipulated round with MORE THAN 14 clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with LESS THAN 14 clubs he may add any number, provided that his TOTAL number does NOT exceed 14." The penalty for breach of rule 4-4a in stroke play is 2 strokes per hole for which the breach occurred to a maximum of 4 strokes.

4-4c: Excess Club Declared Out of Play: "Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of rule 4-4 MUST be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play or his marker or fellow-competitor in stroke play Immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. The player MUST NOT use the club or clubs for the remainder of the stipulated round." The Penalty for breach of rule 4-4c is DISQUALIFICATION.

6-1: Rules: "The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules."

So what those mean is that if you start you round with more than 14 clubs you get a two stroke penalty for each hole where you have the extra clubs up to a maximum of 4 strokes. Also, if the player notices or knows that he/she has more than 14 clubs they must immediately declare them out of play or they will be disqualified and as long as you have the extra club(s) with you then you STILL get the penalty of Rule 4-4a. Now, if you were to tee off and then declare an extra club out of play you get a two stroke penalty for that hole, you are not disqualified because you declared it out of play, and if you go say put it in your car then you only get the two stroke penalty for that hole because that is where the penalty for rule 4-4a occurred.

The application of rule 6-1 is easy...you are supposed to know all 34 rules.

What is the learning point from this...don't carry more than 14 clubs. No fights will break out and everyone can actually enjoy their round.