Yet another Rules question!

[cougar978]

This came up yesterday, and I think I was correct in what I said to my fellow-competitor during a tournament yesterday - anyway, here it goes:

We're playing a hole that is a mid-length par-4 that has a red-staked hazard all along the right side of the hole, most of the right side of the hole is obscured by trees, so if you blow one over the first line of trees, even if you're way right, there's a chance the ball will deflect off a branch, cross over the rough, and re-cross into the hazard, which would allow the player to drop at the point of entry.  If it doesn't cross back over, you can drop at the margin of the hazard where the ball last crossed (which is 2-3" thick rough), or you can re-tee.

This player tees off, and hits a dead-right fade that doesn't look like it's going to make it past the first line of trees.  However, I told him there's a chance the ball made it over, and he should play a provisional from the teebox with the idea that the ball may be lost (in or outside the hazard).  That way, if he finds his first ball, he can play it without penalty and pick up the provisional.  If he doesn't find the ball, then his provisional is in play.

The player's caddy tells him he should go up and drop at a point that's in line with the pin behind the point of entry, which is on the white tee box.  The player drops and hits a shot up the fairway.

When we go up the hole, a spotter says he saw the original ball ricochet off a tree, cross over the rough, and re-enter the hazard at a point approximately 150 yds from the hole, and the ball is located in the hazard.  Since the player already dropped and put a ball in play on the line of the hole, he can't go back and take a drop from where the first ball re-entered the hazard, so he's laying three in the fairway from where the dropped ball was hit.

However, my understanding is, if he were to say 'hey, I think my ball may be lost (be it in or outside of the hazard), I'm going to play a provisional', play a provisional, and then when he gets up to the fairway and the spotter finds his original ball in the hazard, he is allowed to abandon his provisional, take relief with penalty from the hazard and be laying two at that point.  In essence, his caddy cost him a stroke by insisting he drop the ball at the entry point near the teebox instead of going back and playing a provisional.  Am I right or wrong on this?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by cougar978

Am I right or wrong on this?

Right in your analysis, wrong for not posting in the Rules forum.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by cougar978

However, my understanding is, if he were to say 'hey, I think my ball may be lost (be it in or outside of the hazard), I'm going to play a provisional', play a provisional, and then when he gets up to the fairway and the spotter finds his original ball in the hazard, he is allowed to abandon his provisional, take relief with penalty from the hazard and be laying two at that point.  In essence, his caddy cost him a stroke by insisting he drop the ball at the entry point near the teebox instead of going back and playing a provisional.  Am I right or wrong on this?

You're right only if there is a reasonable chance that the ball might be lost outside of the lateral water hazard.  If he is playing a provisional ball just to circumvent having to potentially return to the tee for a ball lost or unplayable in the hazard, then it isn't allowed.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You're right only if there is a reasonable chance that the ball might be lost outside of the lateral water hazard.  If he is playing a provisional ball just to circumvent having to potentially return to the tee for a ball lost or unplayable in the hazard, then it isn't allowed.

This is quite interesting as, as you said, you can not hit provisional if it is "known or virtually certain" that the first ball is in the hazard.

[cougar978]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You're right only if there is a reasonable chance that the ball might be lost outside of the lateral water hazard.  If he is playing a provisional ball just to circumvent having to potentially return to the tee for a ball lost or unplayable in the hazard, then it isn't allowed.

The other possibility that I failed to mention is that the after the ball crossed over the hazard, it ricocheted off a tree and came to rest on the patch of rough that separates the two hazard lines (therefore the ball would still be in play).  My argument was, the guy didn't know whether or not the ball was a) still in play, b) lost outside the hazard, or c) lost/unplayable in the hazard, so playing a provisional in that case was the best plan of action.  We didn't know there was a spotter watching the hole - had he let us know what happened with the guy's first ball, he would have been able to take a drop with penalty where the ball last crossed the hazard with no need for a provisional ball.

[ghalfaire]

The only reason you can hit a provisional ball is if you suspect the original ball is OB or lost "outside of a water hazard".  Since this was not a water hazard a provisional ball would have been a good idea based on the possibility the original ball was lost outside of a water hazard.  However since the original ball was found he would not have been permitted to play the provisional ball.  Once the original ball is found it has to be played.   If found inside a hazard the player has several choices as to how to proceed but none of them allow playing the provisional ball.  So in this situation a provisional ball would not have helped the player.

I would think in this case, since the player chose to drop a second ball assuming the original ball was lost, that the dropped ball is now the ball in play and it is laying 2.  The original ball is abandoned and out of play even though it is later found.

Just to give credit where credit is due I learned this on TST a few months back when I had a similar situation only involving a water hazard where sometimes it is possible to lose the ball inside of the water hazard without knowing if it is or is not lost in the hazard.  Turns out there is a local rule here on the home course to speed play on this hole.   You are permitted to hit a provisional even if you suspect the ball may be lost in the water hazard (on this hole only).

[luu5]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

Just to give credit where credit is due I learned this on TST a few months back when I had a similar situation only involving a water hazard where sometimes it is possible to lose the ball inside of the water hazard without knowing if it is or is not lost in the hazard.  Turns out there is a local rule here on the home course to speed play on this hole.   You are permitted to hit a provisional even if you suspect the ball may be lost in the water hazard (on this hole only).

I also wondered why our club has a local rule about provisional ball on one par 5 if the ball has possibility of ending into a stream. But knowing the golf rules made me understand also the reasoning behind the local rule.

[Fourputt]

Keep in mind that when that local rule is in effect, you lose any option except stroke and distance if you play the provisional ball.  If your ball turns out to be in the hazard and unplayable, then you must continue play with the provisional ball.  You no longer have the option of dropping 2 clublengths from the margin of the hazard or along the line from the hole to margin (options c and b of Rule 26-1).

[ghalfaire]

Yup, I learned that too but not on TST.  But this is an unlikely event on this particular hole.  If your ball managed to carry hazard it is in the rough.  The margin around the water is pretty small so not likely to be in the hazard without being in the water.  But as I learned it is possible.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Keep in mind that when that local rule is in effect, you lose any option except stroke and distance if you play the provisional ball.  If your ball turns out to be in the hazard and unplayable, then you must continue play with the provisional ball.  You no longer have the option of dropping 2 clublengths from the margin of the hazard or along the line from the hole to margin (options c and b of Rule 26-1).