Red stakes?

[Skywalker]

Hi guys and girls =) , another rules question -

Scenario - Golfer A has hit a drive off the tee and has pulled it left, it was last seen coming down on the blind side of a small hill very close to red staked bushline/ditch. a russel is heard and it is fair to say the ball may have gon into the hazard

the golfers walk up and cant find the ball so it is agreed that it must have entered the hazard BUT because of the hill no one could see where it went in and it cant be found in the hazard either as its thick overgrown shrubs ect.

what is done in this situation? if its agreed that the ball went in can the golfers between them decide where they "think" it must have entered and take a drop from there under penalty of one? or must this ball be treated as being "lost", this would incur stoke and distance and mean walking back to the tee for his/hers 3rds shot if a provisional wasnt played

thank people! im getting there with the rules, i just seem to read some of them and can still think of scenarios like this where i would still be unsure!

[Shorty]

The ball is lost.

You can't assume or agree that it's in the hazard.

Back to the tee to play your third shot.

[Rulesman]

There 3 situations here.

1) When it was thought that the ball may have gone into the lateral water hazard, the player was entitled to play a provisional as it may have been lost outside the hazard. In reality he should have taken one because of what comes next.

2) When he arrived at the scene, in order to say the ball was in the hazard it must be known or virtually certain (KVC) that it was in. In other words was there absolutely no where else the ball could be. Could it have been in nearby scrub (on the other side of the hazard say) or was there light rough in the area (think about the number of times a ball is eventually found after searching the light rough for 4 minutes). If they are not sure where it may have entered that could be a very large area to find a ball unless the whole area was mown to fairway length. If it is not KVC then he would have to play his provisional or go back to the tee.

3) If it was KVC that the ball was in the hazard, then he must make his best estimate of where it entered.

From what you say, my feeling is that it was not KVC but one would really have to be there to see the full situation.