Tiger calls 17 "gimmicky"

[iacas]

I just dont under stand whats lucky about it.

As stated a few times already now, the wind changes direction frequently. If it changes direction after you've begun your swing, that ain't a measure of skill. It's luck whether the wind stays the same, stops, starts, or switches direction.

If the wind blows i can see your point.

That's the WHOLE point, or my whole point and, as I've said, I suspect Tiger's whole point. The wind is what makes that hole two things: lucky (or unlucky) and "mental" - as in players getting dry-mouthed and fearing the hole.

Clearly PGA Tour pros can hit a green that size from 135 on a calm day. Probably 99 times out of 100. The hole itself is nothing to be afraid of. The hole WITH WIND is. And the wind, as I've said, swirls, stops, and starts. That's what makes it a luck-driven hole.

He's saying its wrong to have it there because you have to be crazy to go for the flag when its in those sucker positions.

Given Tiger's love of par, I think you're wrong in your assessment. Tiger likes tournaments where par is a good score. He likes holes where he has an advantage. A short hole with swirly winds isn't either, and suggesting Tiger likes birdie-able holes doesn't fly with what he's said over the years. Tiger doesn't enter many "shootout" tournaments - where pros shoot -24 to win - for a reason.

[arran]

i just saw a golf channel premiere of the players championship, dave pelz talking about how firm the greens are. i thought the green was sort of like fly paper. but their bermuda grass which takes a huge hop before spinning. so you may hit the green on 17 but careful where you land it, you might roll or bounce off the green

[Naruto]

again tiger has said when you hit the ball properly, as he does, the wind doesn't affect the ball much. i think you guys are reading too much into the wind: it's not like its always blowing like at the verizon heritage... its not gail force winds that are going from into your face to dead from behind while the ball is in the air.

phil said he's been short and long with the same club... sure if the wind is dead into his face and he hits a 9 it will come up short and then if later the wind is dead at his back the 9 will be long... COMMON SENSE here...

i dont think the 17th is any more gimmicky than 16 at augusta... the players are always complaining about swirling winds there.

in the end if they hit the ball in the water at 17 i think it is more due to the fact that they are thinking about how diffucult the task of hitting a wedge that somehow can land on a surface the size of an aircraft carrier, than it is to do with the wind.... I THOUGHT THESE GUYS WERE GOOD...are they only good when everything is perfect..... and they have room to bail out?

17 makes the golf tournament interesting right down to the wire... it reveals the medal of the golfer.

i hope to one day get the chance to go birdie that hole....

[iacas]

again tiger has said when you hit the ball properly, as he does, the wind doesn't affect the ball much. i think you guys are reading too much into the wind: it's not like its always blowing like at the verizon heritage... its not gail force winds that are going from into your face to dead from behind while the ball is in the air.

Uhm, do you not remember the flagsticks being bent over last year?

phil said he's been short and long with the same club... sure if the wind is dead into his face and he hits a 9 it will come up short and then if later the wind is dead at his back the 9 will be long... COMMON SENSE here...

You do realize those shots were within seconds of each other, right? He hit them ALL in playing a practice round. He was long, then short seconds later with the same club because of the wind.

i dont think the 17th is any more gimmicky than 16 at augusta... the players are always complaining about swirling winds there.

No they're not. You're probably confusing it with the 12th, and if a player wants to at the 12th he can put the ball in the back bunker or go way left or whatever. It's not an island green. It gives players options.

[Naruto]

the flag stick being bent over one year doesnt mean anything... so they should boycott the entire venue for the verizon heritage because there were walls of sand blowing sideways and they couldnt get a 6 iron to go more than 120 yards.... now thats wind...

one time means nothing.... so one practice round with insane wind action is not the norm.... there happens to be a tropical storm off the eastern coast right now so weird wind can be expected....

they are the best players in the world so i would like to see them work in some insane conditions every now and then and have to face some very daunting shots.... hell i can hit a 9 iron into a 10' circle on a calm sunny day as well as most of you can... i dont want to watch that day in and day out.... i can shoot a mid 70 on a perfect day, but on a nasty windy day i could shoot a 90.... i want to see these guys shoot a 73 on these nasty days... keeps it interesting when there are other variables.... fairways and greens, albeit great golf, is very boring golf.... that's what makes water hazards so much more entertaining.... a bunker isn't a hazard.... a hazard is something you cant play from... a bunker is an inconvenience, same thing as a collection area, they serve almost no purpose....

I am tired of watching tiger hit a drive 50 yards to the right hitting his recovery shot into a "hazard" (waste bunker) topping it to the greenside "hazard" and getting up and down for a birdie.... wow those hazards really showed him... let's see him make a 3 from the water.... that's a freaking hazard.

[Sharkgolf]

Basically, and just because I am as good an asslicker as anyone, I have to agree with Mr. Woods. Of COURSE 17 at Sawgrass is gimmicky. Why? because Tiger says so, that's why!! Does anyone on the planet have an ounce of golfing integrity in them to disagree on matters golf with Tiger Woods???? Step UP! OK; Jack, you can come over and talk about it, but the rest of you?? GO AWAY! Tiger said it, and therefore, it is FACT! Are we gonna change it?? Nööööööööö! Whatever for? We LOVE it. We love the splashes and the trainwrecks and the slumped shoulders and the brilliant putts and the "better than MOSSTSS" and the seagulls stealing balls and the huge crowd and the fact that no leader has a real lead on Sunday until 17 has been dealt with. Its a GIMMICK, and we LOVE it!!!!! Sigh. Forums are fun. Can I go out & play now?

[Cleveland Gunmetal]

I realize I am getting into this thread a bit late but really because I'm surprised this thread has gone on this long.

Is #17 gimmicky? Of course it is. Is it entertaining? Well, yeah it is. So I can see why the players don't like it and I can see why the fans do like it. I'm not good enough to be on tour so I could fall into the fan category. And give me a break about the wind not making that much of a difference. Log on to pgatour.com right now and watch the players play the hole. Tour players simply do not miss a large green from 126 yards (or whatever it is) without the wind affecting it a lot. The wind is always swirling on that hole which makes it more difficult. Casey and Glover each made triple and I think Curtis just made a quad.

[iacas]

the flag stick being bent over one year doesnt mean anything... so they should boycott the entire venue for the verizon heritage because there were walls of sand blowing sideways and they couldnt get a 6 iron to go more than 120 yards.... now thats wind...

Find me an island green at the Verizon Heritage, dude. You're missing the point.

one time means nothing.... so one practice round with insane wind action is not the norm.... there happens to be a tropical storm off the eastern coast right now so weird wind can be expected....

Actually, tropical storms create a more normal wind than often exists in Florida. So do hurricanes. At least you know from what direction the wind will go.

And no, "one time means nothing" would be true if it was just one time. It's not just one time - it's often windy there.

I am tired of watching tiger hit a drive 50 yards to the right hitting his recovery shot into a "hazard" (waste bunker) topping it to the greenside "hazard" and getting up and down for a birdie.... wow those hazards really showed him... let's see him make a 3 from the water.... that's a freaking hazard.

Two things: unless Tiger's playing a par 6 in your little example, he didn't birdie anything. And I don't know the last time I saw Tiger "top" anything.

Get real.

[ragontona]

Here's all I know about 17. It's 3:14 pm EST, and 30 balls have found water today. I've been watching on and off, and some very well struck balls didn't even sniff the green because of a last second wind gust that was impossible for the player to predict. Also, the one shot I've seen hit within three feet of the hole was a lucky bounce off the wall that popped straight up and worked its way down to the hole.

It's all been luck today with this hole.

[Clubswinger21]

Wasnt it more like 41 balls in the water? the most in an opening round since 2001.

As stated a few times already now, the wind changes direction frequently. If it changes direction after you've begun your swing, that ain't a measure of skill. It's luck whether the wind stays the same, stops, starts, or switches direction.

Arent you kind of contradicting your 1st post then. In saying the tournament shouldnt be decided on a hole that requires luck. Really I was leaning towards agreeing with your oppinion there.

On 17, chances are you're going to make par or bogey if its windy. I was simply saying alot of the guys chasing the leader needing to birdie 2 of the last 3 may resent that hole being #17. It takes birdie out of the equation, I agree for that reason maybe it should be #8.

[iacas]

Wasnt it more like 41 balls in the water? the most in an opening round since 2001.

I heard an unofficial count at 46.

Arent you kind of contradicting your 1st post then.

No... I've not changed my opinion, nor am I contradicting myself.

On 17, chances are you're going to make par or bogey if its windy. I was simply saying alot of the guys chasing the leader needing to birdie 2 of the last 3 may resent that hole being #17. It takes birdie out of the equation, I agree for that reason maybe it should be #8.

Just because I said Tiger likes tournaments where par is a good score (because the other guy had to bring in a bunch of irrelevant TW-related stuff) doesn't take any of the "luck" away from 17. It's not a "birdie" hole, but again, Tiger doesn't like holes where luck plays such a large factor over skill. That's the same reason I said earlier, the same reason I think Tiger feels the hole is gimmicky - too much luck involved.

[Naruto]

is it j.j.henry that has hit that green every time he has played the hole (13 times)... as i watched the replay the guys that hit the ball in the water were going after that front pin... STUPID... i think the correct approach to 17 is the middle of the green... dont even look at the flag... play that hole for a 3.. if you drain a 45 footer then hooray for you but play for the 3....

how many of them went in the water long???? thank you. most of the water balls were trying to hit it into that 25 mph wind to a front pin... what sense does that make? none

sergio trying to hit the 9 iron in there... made some kind of chicken wing follow through and came up some 20 yards short... this year thursday was very difficult due to winds that are three times what they normally are, but the players that just tried to hit the middle of the green were able to do so.

if you play for the middle of the green then there is no luck involved...

17 is playing a full stroke over par because these guys are going at sucker pins in terrible conditions... trying to get that miracle 2.

[iacas]

as i watched the replay the guys that hit the ball in the water were going after that front pin... STUPID... i think the correct approach to 17 is the middle of the green... dont even look at the flag... play that hole for a 3.. if you drain a 45 footer then hooray for you but play for the 3....

I assure you - as have the pros in post-round interviews - that none of them were going for the pin. Perhaps some of the guys who came to the hole +10 already did, but nobody with any shot of anything was going for the pin.

Subconsciously some may have eased off thinking "pin in the front," and some no doubt underestimated the wind, but none were "going at the flag. Not in that wind. Even a PGA Tour pro doesn't have an ego that big.

[Naruto]

wait a minute now... the ones coming up short were hitting 8 into a 25 mph wind... why not take the 7 and make sure you got enough...25 is definitely worth 2-3 clubs minimum. no you dont watch all the people in front of you barely get an 8 iron there and hit the same club unless you are flag hunting.... there is no way that any more than 10 % of the field would have missed that green if they would have been thinking middle of the green with enough club to get there in that wind... im not nearly as good as those guys with distance and trajectory control... i hit my 8 about 160, pretty close to what they do and i would have been hitting a 7 minimum and more than likey opted for the 6 especially after watching everyone else in front of me getting no where near the middle with 8... logic dictates that the ball is getting hammered in that wind and that an extra club isn't going to go long... my point is everyone in the water was short..... there was a lot of room behind that pin.... they were trying to keep it on that lower front tier and they paid the price.

now if 1/4 of the water balls would have been short, and a 1/4 left and a 1/4 right and 1/4 long then i would have conceded that WOW those swirling winds cant be handled...that the hole is gimicky and too much luck is involved... but no all short all hitting the same club, it's not luck that's doing that it's poor course management....

[Klew]

you should watch some of the coverage on pgatour.com at the 17th. They are hitting 8 irons but all with an abbreviated follow through to keep the ball down. if you watched most of the round yesterday then you know it was missed from all sides, left, right, long, short...on course announcers kept saying how the wind kept changing all day also.

[popey]

Why do we not just build a glass dome around the course and see what effect it will have? I didnt think so!

STOP protecting the pros! They already have everything laid out perfectly for them from tee to green and do not play a game anything remotely like what we do every weekend. Golf is a game where you are not just playing against everyone else but also the course, unlike any other sport! THAT IS WHY IT IS DIFFERENT AND WHY WE LOVE IT!

Who pays Tigers wages? Why is golf so popular? Why has price money rocketed?
THE FANS

So the pros need to get on with entertaining as that is what they are there to do and we will continue to pay for the TV and there wages!

[Ogg]

So 17 is requiring some thinking and that is a good thing. Call it gimmicky or call it luck, but it makes for interesting golf. That is the beauty of Sawgrass, it is a thinking man's course rather then the standard course you see every weekend where they hit driver wedge.

Such a gorgeous golf hole regardless.

[Dminn23]

Gimmicky...maybe. But I would like to see Rory Sabatini fall off the walkway and get dragged under by a gator while heading to the 17th green.

Okay, maybe thats a little excessive.....I just can't stand the guy, at all!