Clubfitting/Technique question

[Ajlepisto]

Originally Posted by robrey85

I haven't ever tried it, but have you thought about going to GolfTEC to get fitted for a new set of clubs? I was going to do it but I had already purchased a set of clubs that I wanted to be fitted too. The dude I was talking to said that usually, you get fitted first and then they give that information to whichever manu. they deal with or you want (not sure how that works) and then you get clubs sent to you specific to your data.

I'm not sure how it all works out in the end but definitely an option I would explore if I was in the market for some new clubs.

I've thought about it. I'm not sure if I would like that, though. I'd like to get fitted, or a lesson...but I don't know if I like a system telling me what shafts, head and even ball to play. I feel like there's a difference between optimal, and what I play, see and use best. I'm a big believer that you can adapt to nearly anything. Not saying what they offer isn't good...but I think I'd like to play clubs that feel the best. Hopefully that makes sense?

Anyway...I tried hitting some balls today and played 9 holes today with this new idea of keeping my head behind the ball. Huge difference. I'm still launching the ball a bit high, but the flight is straight/slight fade and the ball is once again compressing properly. I've regained my distance, as I was pushing a 6 iron to 150 and now I'm hitting easy 7s focusing on technique. Once I get comfortable and maybe hit a draw, I'd probably be at a 8-9 iron again. I really had no idea I was flipping that bad...but I've only gotten this more upright, proper swing for about a month or two, and I've never been at the point where I could play with it, until now.

[nevrino]

I think you should really only focus on getting rid of that flipping Ajlepisto, it's your Nr1 priority. This problem is what I think wrist related so you don't have to focus on anything else than that imo. What you'll need to do to not flip is a flat left wrist at impact, how do you fix that? Well the best way for me was to get the right wrist cupped at impact and try to hold it cupped thru the hit.

I made a little film, the right wrist is exaggerated a lot but try this and hopefully it will help.

[logman]

why? Why is it important to rid the world of "flipping"?. So it's OK to to have any percentage of negative wrist angle(I mean any angle you like as long as your wrists are ahead of the face) but any angle past the wrists is golfing death. Really!, does the ball really notice that it's being hit at a 0 angle of attack instead of a -5 degree angle.

[nevrino]

Originally Posted by logman

why? Why is it important to rid the world of "flipping"?. So it's OK to to have any percentage of negative wrist angle(I mean any angle you like as long as your wrists are ahead of the face) but any angle past the wrists is golfing death. Really!, does the ball really notice that it's being hit at a 0 angle of attack instead of a -5 degree angle.

As you might have noticed this thread was about that he has a  high clubface speed but doesn't deliver that to the ball, and much likely it's because of the flipping. My film is just an exaggeration, call it a feeling, that hopefully will make him not flip so much and lose all speed before impact.

[Ajlepisto]

It doesn't "matter." I can play with a flip. In fact, I have for around 2 months. I've only been playing golf for 6 months though - so it's led me to be really inconsistent. When you flip and hit a high ball, you are at the mercy of the wind, mostly. I wanted to keep, 1, my ball flight down, and 2, get the maximum distance and compression for my swing. I was starting to ramp up to  around 95mph on swings just to get more distance and hitting it 2 clubs shorter than pros who have a lower swing speed.

Worse, I was hitting the dead center of the clubface, but just not transferring much mass into the ball.

Here is a new video. No ball, sorry, but my impact looks better.

For me, it seems just that my setup wasn't too great. Now that I have the shaft closer to matching my left arm angle from FO view, I don't overswing and my spine stays back. Then it's just a matter of keeping my head back a bit.

I just need to work on that move through the ball. Since I flipped, I learned to get through the ball a lot and now I still get past the ball a bit. Fine tuning I guess.

Thanks for the replies though. This has been a really big revelation to me.

I'm hoping to hop onto a launch monitor again soon and compare the numbers. After a few weeks I think I can start ramping my swing speed up again, but for now, I'm just trying to be smooth. I've had people say that my swing looks smoother in person too, because I used to have that little hitch at the bottom.

[logman]

I don't understand the logic that a downwards angle of attack can be a good thing for power but an upward angle of attack is pure evil. We hit up on drivers to get distance so why does it follow that irons must be struck in a downwards attack

[logman]

Sorry I forgot.....why would flipping rob him of speed?

[Ajlepisto]

Originally Posted by logman

I don't understand the logic that a downwards angle of attack can be a good thing for power but an upward angle of attack is pure evil. We hit up on drivers to get distance so why does it follow that irons must be struck in a downwards attack

The difference is that the driver is usually used with a tee.

Ideally, you'd want to hit everything on the way up if you wanted optimal launch. However, it's impossible to hit up on something that is on the ground. The only way to do this is to hit it fat (behind the ball, through the ground) and we all know how well that works :)

Hitting down or at best perfectly level (picking) is the optimal way to strike a ball. It produces the best contact and also keeps the spin rate high enough to hold greens. I usually hit up on irons when I tee the ball up, or at least, level.

[Ajlepisto]

Originally Posted by logman

Sorry I forgot.....why would flipping rob him of speed?

It robs me of ball speed, but maybe not necessarily much clubhead speed. I will see about that...

When you flip, you aren't actually accelerating into the ball with any mass (your body), you're basically reducing the mass of the object hitting the ball, and using just additional momentum from your wrists. If you notice, lots of times on the videos I have, the shaft is unloaded really really early into the ball because my arms have stopped moving forward and my wrists try to straighten the club. It requires a lot of timing and provides less than optimal contact and ball compression. Not flipping makes sure that I hit the ball with all of the energy I generate in my swing, compressing the ball properly and getting optimal distance.

[Ajlepisto]

Here is a good video that addresses some of the angles of attack, etc:

[Ajlepisto]

Another video about angle of attack:

[logman]

Thanks mate, I love the Trackman guy. And in a weird way he answered my question about spin and angle of attack. I'm still not with you 100 per cent regarding losing power because you flip....I just can't see why that would necesarrily follow. but anyway, cheers

[Ajlepisto]

I think the most simple analogy would be to compare it to this:

Would you rather be hit with a brick traveling 100mph, or a feather?

Same speed, but the mass is the factor that increases the impact. When you flip, you disconnect the chain to your body and instead of hitting it with a large mass moving together, you hit it with your forearms. That's why I could get the same contact and just not actually compress the ball and get proper ball speed.

[Ajlepisto]

So I hit a few balls on a LM today. I have to question the accuracy of the system. It was a CG2 at a Golfsmith, and it was showing I had 75mph 6i clubhead speed. I topped out at 80mph. Yet I was hitting the ball around 160 carry with KBS C taper X stiff. I was blown away.

Hit today on a different LM and was getting 6i speeds above 90mph. I guess I've learned now that you can't really trust numbers all that much. I wish there was a place to hit new clubs at a range.

[Ajlepisto]

Worked a bit on this. Here is a new side view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Px_xkXQ1Q&feature;=youtu.be

Sorry the audio got out of sync. I'm going to record a better video.

I still hear the whoosh a bit before contact...but not quite as bad. I don't know if that's good. I hold lag until halfway down my swing usually, but I just seem to lose it in the bottom 25% of the swing.

I'm still carrying around 250 with driving range balls, but my swing speed should produce much better results. I'm beginning to get frustrated. I know how to hold the angle and I do it, but it seems like I stall when I get to impact. I wondered if I was letting my elbows get stuck behind my body a bit, so I've tried to keep my right elbow tucked during the backswing. Seems to have helped accuracy, but I don't know if it's really helped impact.

I'm just not sure if a manipulation of the wrists is what I need. I'm tempted to say its a setup issue, or maybe a swing thought issue.

[cooke119]

I was fitted for my set of Ping irons at Golfsmith and couldn't be more happy, they work like a charm. I don't have all the stats on my swing and ball flight as you do, I just like the clubs and they have improved my game. Maybe it is just confidence in the clubs or whatever, but I'm good to go. I would also recommend taking some lessons, they probably help more than the hardware.

[Ajlepisto]

Just thought I would update this. I've been tracking my progress on another forum with a similar post. The biggest issue I have right now is that I am using a cell phone camera, which makes it hard to see my impact position.

Instead I got a swingbyte, which has confirmed what I thought. Though I do get a little flippy, and I fought a time as evidenced by the video I posted, I was achieving forward shaft lean at impact. I actually went the opposite direction in effort to fix what I thought was a wrong feel. After about a month seeking success somewhere it wasn't, I just got back to the basics.

I started to keep my hips and shoulders closed and hit into a posted left leg. I naturally get a lot of lateral slide on my downswing which makes my impact position near the leading edge of my rear thigh. I was alarmed at this, because without true slow motion, I couldn't tell what true impact was like. Thanks to the swingbyte and some tweaking, I've managed to determine that I am hitting down properly.

Here's an updated video. I've successfully shortened my backswing by keeping my trailing leg bent during the backswing. I was letting my lead arm break down a bit and standing up on my backswing which caused me to tip a little.

I'm still casting a bit of clubhead speed about a foot before the ball, but I think it may be that I am a bit too steep still on my downswing. I've gained a lot of distance and now am hitting a small draw, albeit still very high, but 8i is going around 145-150. Thankfully the wind has died down a bit and allowed me to see what my ball flight is like without any influence. I suspect I just need to learn how to calculate more accurately depending on the wind conditions in the future. Also I play in the PacNW, somewhat close to sea level, so I assume that will impact my ball flight numbers as well.