Clubfitting/Technique question

[Ajlepisto]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question. I'm looking for some new irons, as I recently sold my current set.

I hit a high ball with a lot of spin. I'm an upright swinger, and I am 6'2", 200 lbs.

I've been trying a number of clubs but I seem to be exceeding the spin levels.

My typical stats are around mid 150s 6i carry, with a 90 mph swing speed, and ball speeds usually in the 108-110 range. I hit a small fade, with side spin usually around 600 rpm. My ball descent angle is 50 degrees. Always within 2 degrees, usually lower, so 48-50. Always. Thing is, my 6iron backspin is usually at 7000 or higher rpm. I was told it would spin a bit more because of the fade...but I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong. With my older PX 5.5 shafts, when I went at it, it would spin up to 9k with the 6 iron. The ball would shoot up, hang in the air and then drop...usually right into a bunker. When there was any wind, I'd be up a creek. Literally.

I take nice divots, just barely left of target. I don't flip, my leading edge always shows the mat residue or the dirt, and my divots get deep towards the end, well past the ball. If anything my miss is usually thin.

What I am confused about is...I am getting hardly any distance. I get maybe 2 yards of roll, which is okay...but I don't understand how I can have a decent swing speed, decent face contact, and yet spin rates so out of this world. Even when I hit shafts that are supposed to fit my swing speed, the spin stays high. Only when I go ridiculous (like a PX 7.0 or a KBS C Taper S+) does it come down. When I tried the KBS, my swing speed is a little lower (around 6k) but it feels majorly taxing to swing that club. The angle my club comes into the turf is right around 3.5-4 degrees.

I can hit a straight or draw, so I don't think I'm doing anything weird with my swing. Does anyone have any ideas what it might be? People at the store keep telling me it's fine but I don't really understand how my numbers can be similar to charts I have seen and what other people online say theirs are, yet I am sacrificing so much distance. Or, is this just a matter of finding the perfect shaft and I just haven't found it yet?

EDIT:

I also think I should clarify. I used the Foresight at Golfsmith for the numbers...but the few times I've been on a trackman, it's also been really similar. What I don't get though, is the Foresight tells me I have a low-mid 80s swing speed, sometimes even into the high 70s. But on other monitors, it always registers 89-90. The Mizuno DNA system also measured me at 90. I don't really understand how this could be so far off...unless places enhance the numbers a bit? Possible?

[WUTiger]

Some clarifications:

• Is 90 MPH your driver swing speed, or your 6i swing speed?
• What is your ball position on the irons at set-up?
• What kind of golf ball (brand/model) do you  use when you play? Have you had a ball-fitting?

If you've worked with a pro, you might have him video your swing and look at your impact position.

[Ajlepisto]

I have video of my swing. My hands don't always get in front of the ball, they get about even or maybe just barely past it. I usually fight a small hip stall at impact but recover it right at impact. Like I catch myself from completely flipping and I continue through the shot. That's what I think and feel, at least. My fade comes from hips turning more than sliding, which I have a feeling is why I don't get the shaft leaning forward as hard as some people. If I moved laterally more on my downswing first, before opening, I would hit a draw, and in fact, is how I hit a draw. I don't have a high speed camera so it's tough to see actual impact. Perhaps I should look into getting this. The lessons I've taken are fairly old school, just visual at a range, so I'd have to go somewhere else.

90 mph is my 6i swing speed.

With a 6i, I usually put the ball about half a ball towards my front foot, from middle. I play the 7i right in the middle, 8-pw maybe just a tad behind it, up to my 3i which is usually just inside my leading heel.

Thanks :)

[Ajlepisto]

I went in to a local store today to test out some new clubs.

We went through S300, KBS C Taper, Normal KBS, a Nippon something or rather, and PX 6.0.

Spin rates were high with all of these. Clubhead speed was around 90mph, with max being like 93-94mph. The harder I swing, the more spin I get. Going into stiffer shafts does bring the spin down a bit but the ball was launching up so high it was ridiculous. I was hitting it around 148 with around 1 yard of rollout. Slight fade, maybe 2-3 yards, but also a lot of straight shots.

One of the guys just suggested I take a lesson (they give lessons there, funny.) but I don't really understand what could be going wrong. I put some face tape on the irons and I was hitting dead center.

Problem is, my ball speed is really low. For 92 mph, my ball speed was something like 105-107. Maybe a few were closer to 110. This seems ridiculous. Some of my spin rates were 8900 RPMs. The sim doesn't give decent angle, but in other instances I always have it at 50. I tested again the other day and it was 50.

It doesn't seem to line up at all with the trackman chart: http://thesandtrap.com/t/32498/trackman-data-pga-tour-vs-lpga

[nevrino]

I don't know much about trackman numbers. But my unqualified guess would be that when the hands aren't infront of the ball at impact you give the club to much loft which causes loss of distance and high spin numbers and a high trajectory. Have you compared the launch angle?

[Ajlepisto]

Yes. According to the launch monitor data, my launch angle is around 16-18 degrees. A bit higher than the PGA average, which is more than likely due to not as much of a forward lean at impact. What I don't understand though, is that I take healthy divots. In fact, rather large ones. So if I was flipping or hitting with my hands behind the ball, wouldn't I not be taking a divot, or hitting the ball fat?

My contact sounds really good. And impact tape on the face always shows a center hit. I thought flipping or an early release would show itself in the location of the divot pattern, ie, starting before the ball. My divots all start after the ball.

[turbosdad]

Not an answer to the OP, but when I went to a popular golf store and said I wanted to get some clubs, a lady took me in the bay and brought out several clubs and let me hit them all and said you hit this one the best, you should get those..................so I left with some bright shiny clubs.  I dont know anymore than that in regards to information about my swing.

[nevrino]

Found this table, something is definitely wrong with the clubspeed and ballspeed ratio.(Don't know how updated it is though)

I know it's possible to lose tons of ballspeed with sidespin, but you usually hear that on the noise, it sounds too much imo.

Can't you post a video of your swing? I'm getting kinda curious

[Ajlepisto]

Here is an older video of my fade:

Here is where I was when I first started. Ironically, I could hit a draw easily...due to the massive inside takeaway:

And a side view with a driver, the club I struggle with the most, right now:

I come a little over the top, but usually I'm right on my address shaft angle at impact. This basically just means in order to hit a draw I have to have a lot of forearm roll feel on the start of my downswing. I've worked on this a lot and tried to improve my OTT. I'm thinking I'm almost there...I just need to shorten the backswing a bit more and I think it would be fine. I've been playing golf for 6 months and it's hard to break habits that I formed when I really had no idea what I was doing wrong. I wish I had gotten lessons to start with! :(

Interestingly, I bought a set of irons today second hand and tested them on the launch monitor, not the indoor sim. I think it was a PureLaunch.

Anyway, hitting straightish/draws on that produced spin numbers around mid 6000 rpm, and gave me around 160+ carry distance. 86mph clubhead speed, and around 1.3x PTR, which I think is the system's smash factor. My launch angle was around 15-16 degrees. (Not quite as forceful as a pro!)

So, it would seem that at least when I hit my usual fade, I lose something like 8-10 yards and increase my backspin by something like 2-2.5k rpms. Pretty amazing...I've never seen the numbers of my swings and I didn't think hitting a fade would really do that much difference. I always thought it would be more subtle, but I'm completely shocked to see how dramatic the change is.

This is all carry distance, too...so it's even a bigger shock. With the "draw" or the more typical action through the ball it said rollout was like 8-9 yards, but with the fade the rollout is like 1 yard. When it's windy, with that spin, it could be almost 2 clubs difference. Insane!

[nevrino]

Originally Posted by Ajlepisto

.I just need to shorten the backswing a bit more and I think it would be fine. I've been playing golf for 6 months and it's hard to break habits that I formed when I really had no idea what I was doing wrong. I wish I had gotten lessons to start with! :(

Interestingly, I bought a set of irons today second hand and tested them on the launch monitor, not the indoor sim. I think it was a PureLaunch.

Anyway, hitting straightish/draws on that produced spin numbers around mid 6000 rpm, and gave me around 160+ carry distance. 86mph clubhead speed, and around 1.3x PTR, which I think is the system's smash factor. My launch angle was around 15-16 degrees. (Not quite as forceful as a pro!)

Hehe know the feeling I also work hard with many bad habits. I can't see any major flaw in your swing, and it looks sweet, can't see why it wouldn't work. But the takeaway is kinda shallow still, my instructor told me I do the takeaway like you give gas with the trottle on a motorcycle. So my swingthought has been to not give gas hehe. Might work for you aswell.

[Ajlepisto]

Nice pictures.

You know, I had a really bad problem because my backswing looked loopy. The problem I realized eventually was that if you see my right elbow...it rarely bends. In fact my backswing is really wide, when seen from the face on view. It's because my arms go back and they don't really cock up, they just kinda swing around. It makes it almost impossible not to come over the top when you leave your arms totally straight the whole time. I thought I just wasn't getting it, but actually letting my right elbow bend faster on my takeaway puts me on plane. I discovered this no less than about a week ago. I've been working on it a lot. And yes. I'd always see I was inside/under the plane and couldn't figure out how not to be...unless I really manipulated the wrists up, which feels weird and I was told it was wrong.

The other thing I discovered today is I was holding lag too long. It's funny, because they say don't flip your wrists, but what I was doing was covering the ball with my chest and trying to actively hit the ball into the ground with forward shaft lean. What happens is that you get like 20 degrees of shaft lean right before impact, but then your wrists stop moving and the inertia from the club (esp when you swing harder) kicks forward and you actually flip due to the force on your wrists. I see that when I start missing a lot right, it's because I haven't actually released the club and my wrists forward, towards the ball. It's actually possible to hold lag beyond the strike. Too much pulling my hands through impact and not enough snap back to the ball. Once I realized this I started unlocking them at the ball and started to hit a high draw or a mini fade. Compression on the ball went up. I had a few easy swings at 84mph with 110 ball speed, so instantly more smash factor. Spin was still a little high (6600 rpm with s300) and a 39 yard height and 18 degree launch angle, but that can be fixed with a stiffer shaft and/or better technique.

I was just unaware how such a small change can be HUGE in terms of the numbers. It was shocking.

[nevrino]

Originally Posted by Ajlepisto

Nice pictures.

You know, I had a really bad problem because my backswing looked loopy. The problem I realized eventually was that if you see my right elbow...it rarely bends. In fact my backswing is really wide, when seen from the face on view. It's because my arms go back and they don't really cock up, they just kinda swing around. It makes it almost impossible not to come over the top when you leave your arms totally straight the whole time. I thought I just wasn't getting it, but actually letting my right elbow bend faster on my takeaway puts me on plane. I discovered this no less than about a week ago. I've been working on it a lot. And yes. I'd always see I was inside/under the plane and couldn't figure out how not to be...unless I really manipulated the wrists up, which feels weird and I was told it was wrong.

The other thing I discovered today is I was holding lag too long. It's funny, because they say don't flip your wrists, but what I was doing was covering the ball with my chest and trying to actively hit the ball into the ground with forward shaft lean. What happens is that you get like 20 degrees of shaft lean right before impact, but then your wrists stop moving and the inertia from the club (esp when you swing harder) kicks forward and you actually flip due to the force on your wrists. I see that when I start missing a lot right, it's because I haven't actually released the club and my wrists forward, towards the ball. It's actually possible to hold lag beyond the strike. Too much pulling my hands through impact and not enough snap back to the ball. Once I realized this I started unlocking them at the ball and started to hit a high draw or a mini fade. Compression on the ball went up. I had a few easy swings at 84mph with 110 ball speed, so instantly more smash factor. Spin was still a little high (6600 rpm with s300) and a 39 yard height and 18 degree launch angle, but that can be fixed with a stiffer shaft and/or better technique.

I was just unaware how such a small change can be HUGE in terms of the numbers. It was shocking.

Haha golf is a mystery, especially the backswing it certainly aint easy. Glad you made some improvements! I think there's still some juice to squeeze out from that ball, which isn't clubfitt related.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ajlepisto

The other thing I discovered today is I was holding lag too long. It's funny, because they say don't flip your wrists, but what I was doing was covering the ball with my chest and trying to actively hit the ball into the ground with forward shaft lean. What happens is that you get like 20 degrees of shaft lean right before impact, but then your wrists stop moving and the inertia from the club (esp when you swing harder) kicks forward and you actually flip due to the force on your wrists. I see that when I start missing a lot right, it's because I haven't actually released the club and my wrists forward, towards the ball. It's actually possible to hold lag beyond the strike. Too much pulling my hands through impact and not enough snap back to the ball. Once I realized this I started unlocking them at the ball and started to hit a high draw or a mini fade. Compression on the ball went up. I had a few easy swings at 84mph with 110 ball speed, so instantly more smash factor. Spin was still a little high (6600 rpm with s300) and a 39 yard height and 18 degree launch angle, but that can be fixed with a stiffer shaft and/or better technique.

Are you talking about this?

[nevrino]

Originally Posted by iacas

Are you talking about this?

Should have watched the frontview! Pretty spot on why he loses ballspeed.

[uscfan]

i knew he was flipping that explains spot on

[Ajlepisto]

Originally Posted by iacas

Are you talking about this?

Yes, that exactly. It's strange because I thought I wasn't flipping. I take good divots, which I've heard is the number one thing that DOESN'T happen if you flip. I also have tried drills like the impact bags and even the punisher and coat hanger on the grip, and they all say I pass...but then I watch the video and voila...this still happens. I always thought my distances were a bit lousy for how fast I swing. I barely carry the ball around 250 and my swing speed can reach closer to 106-107. I always have center face contact, too, which is REALLY weird. I've hit a tour striker, and I don't have any issues with that, either.

The only thing I can think of, is that it looks like my head moves a lot forward during my downswing, because I'm always hitting a ball towards my back foot. I'd do drills where I put the ball 3 inches in front of where I would normally put it, and I'd slide left just fine and hit it, but I think I slide with my entire body too much, instead of pushing my hips forward and keeping the upper body back. It kinda seems like that sets me up for failure with everything else. I notice that when I setup, I don't get the shaft and the forearm on the same angle from the FO view, and my shoulders look fairly level. I'm thinking my problems stem from that. I always just assumed if I have issues hitting down, I'll keep my weight on my left and lower my left shoulder so I am literally aiming lower. I guess that's terrible reasoning.

I also wonder if some of this is set up by the fact that I'm playing standard lie and length clubs, and I am 6'3." I wonder if I am going down after the ball too much. It doesn't seem to be as bad as with the driver and the 3 wood, the longer clubs. It gets really difficult with the PW, the shortest club.

[Ajlepisto]

Question:

I tend to lose my tush line and I rise out of posture with a bit of a rounded back. This is due to my shoulders being fairly level at impact and address? So if I got to impact with my left shoulder higher, it would mean my left hip cleared and rotated up and out, and kept my head back, right? And that would help my hands continue through impact and I'd get more of that shaft lean at impact? When I really rotate hard through with my upper body I can get 6 iron launch angles at 16 degrees, but never any lower. Usually it's around 18 degrees, but there are a few lower and a few higher.

[robrey85]

I haven't ever tried it, but have you thought about going to GolfTEC to get fitted for a new set of clubs? I was going to do it but I had already purchased a set of clubs that I wanted to be fitted too. The dude I was talking to said that usually, you get fitted first and then they give that information to whichever manu. they deal with or you want (not sure how that works) and then you get clubs sent to you specific to your data.

I'm not sure how it all works out in the end but definitely an option I would explore if I was in the market for some new clubs.