Water Hazard? Correct score?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

I am not sure if I understand your icon after the rightfully so...I know it is in the rules, but why would disqualifying both players be the "right" thing to do?  It is match play, they both agree on what they deem is fair, who is getting hurt?

So who has actually seen both match play competitors get DQed for agreeing to waive the rules?

Because a tournament can't be played under one set of rules for one person/match, and another for the remainder of the field......if they were aware of the correct rule and decided to waive that rule, then under rule 1-3 they are disqualified.

I have never seen that happen, because I have never seen anyone playing in any kind of sanctioned tournament willfully ignoring, changing, or otherwise waiving the rules.

The one case in match play where ignorance would not be excused is if the players in the match agreed before the match to ignore or modify a rule because they were both uncertain of of the correct procedure.  Since the agreement occurred before the start of the match, they are deemed to have had the opportunity to get the correct procedure before starting.  The agreement alone would disqualify them even if the rule never came into question during the round.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This depends on whether they agreed to waive the rule that both were aware of, or if they didn't know the procedure and agreed to proceed that way in ignorance of the rule.  In the latter case, there is no penalty and the results of the match would stand.

So I guess in some cases, ignorance is bliss.

Originally Posted by David in FL

Because a tournament can't be played under one set of rules for one person/match, and another for the remainder of the field......if they were aware of the correct rule and decided to waive that rule, then under rule 1-3 they are disqualified.

I have never seen that happen, because I have never seen anyone playing in any kind of sanctioned tournament willfully ignoring, changing, or otherwise waiving the rules.

Playing under a different set of rules is obviously a big problem for a stroke play event, but I don`t see it as a big issue in match play as long as both competitors willingly agree.  i.e. at a club match play event where both competitors play a lot with each other and normally carry 15 clubs.  It is posted that the 14 club rule is in force.  Over lunch before the match they agree to both keep 15 clubs for their match.  Who gets hurt (other than the caddies if they are walking)?

I agree that there are some rules that get violated unknowingly.  The provisional WH could be an example of this (but not in my case going forward).  However, there are other rules that I could see 2 match play competitors knowingly agree to waive including:

Dropping another ball instead of going back to the tee/original spot with a lost ball (or even an OB)

Fixing spike marks on the green

Playing "winter" rules when they are not suppose to be played

Not enforcing a wrong ball penalty on an opponent (more likely in a case where the player who was suppose to hit first walked up to the ball closer to the hole and/or gave his opponent wrong info on which ball was his)

Even if there is an agreement to waive the rules only once in 10,000 matches, it must have occurred often enough that someone on this board has seen it happen.  Who has seen two competitors agree to waive a rule or heard of two competitors getting DQed?

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Playing under a different set of rules is obviously a big problem for a stroke play event, but I don`t see it as a big issue in match play as long as both competitors willingly agree.  i.e. at a club match play event where both competitors play a lot with each other and normally carry 15 clubs.  It is posted that the 14 club rule is in force.  Over lunch before the match they agree to both keep 15 clubs for their match.  Who gets hurt (other than the caddies if they are walking)?

I agree that there are some rules that get violated unknowingly.  The provisional WH could be an example of this (but not in my case going forward).  However, there are other rules that I could see 2 match play competitors knowingly agree to waive including:

Dropping another ball instead of going back to the tee/original spot with a lost ball (or even an OB)

Fixing spike marks on the green

Playing "winter" rules when they are not suppose to be played

Not enforcing a wrong ball penalty on an opponent (more likely in a case where the player who was suppose to hit first walked up to the ball closer to the hole and/or gave his opponent wrong info on which ball was his)

The people that get hurt.....or could get hurt, are the rest of the field.  Those that would face either of the two cheaters (strong word, but one I'll stick with for anyone that knowingly violates the rules in a tournament) in subsequent matches, because the results of the cheaters' match was played under a different set of rules.  As a result, there's no way to know what the result would have been if they had played under the same rules as the rest of the field.  The result could have been the same or it could have been different, but without consistency of play throughout the tournament, the overall tournament results are called into question.

[Lihu]

Actually under the circumsatnces as stated, it wasn't a substituted ball, but the second ball was played from a wrong place.   The ultimate penalty depends on whether the player gained a significant advantage from that action.  It's a 2 stroke penaly and he must finish the hole with that ball [U] unless [/U] he gained a significant advantage, in which case he must go back and finish the hole correctly or be disqualified before teein goff on the next hole; or in the case of the last hole, before he leaves the green on that hole.  In the case of having to correct his mistake, any strokes taken with the wrong ball are not counted. So he makes a 6 and faces possible disqualification if he didn't correct his mistake.  1st ball not found 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place 1 stroke to the green 2 putts. Thus for the poll I picked "none of the above".

I guess I voted 7+ because it was the only option with disqualification. I lose a lot of balls into hazards and out of bounds, so my score is not so good. I would have taken and out of bounds the first shot and made 3 off the tee. Is this the most conservative action?

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Lihu

I guess I voted 7+ because it was the only option with disqualification. I lose a lot of balls into hazards and out of bounds, so my score is not so good.

I would have taken and out of bounds the first shot and made 3 off the tee. Is this the most conservative action?

I think your most "conservative" action would be:

1.  If you are trying to shoot as low a score as possible, go look for your ball before playing your next shot.  After determining whether it is outside or inside the hazard, you can either play it as it lies or take an appropriate drop from the WH.  This very well may cause you to back track and could slow up play a bit.

2.  If you don`t care about your score and want to play as quick as possible within the rules, then I think the best option is to re-hit your tee shot under 27-1a with a stroke and distance penalty.  This becomes the ball in play regardless of whether you find your original or not.  This is not technically considered a OOB or a lost ball.

For handicapping purposes, I may be wrong, but I believe that you are suppose to try your hardest to shoot as low a score as possible.  This may mean that those with an established handicap must only take a stroke and distance penalty under rule 27-1a when they believe that this is the best alternative from a scoring perspective.  Assuming that this is the case, then your only option that I see is #1 above.

[Lihu]

I think your most "conservative" action would be:      1.  If you are trying to shoot as low a score as possible, go look for your ball before playing your next shot.  After determining whether it is outside or inside the hazard, you can either play it as it lies or take an appropriate drop from the WH.  This very well may cause you to back track and could slow up play a bit.      2.  If you don`t care about your score and want to play as quick as possible within the rules, then I think the best option is to re-hit your tee shot under 27-1a with a stroke and distance penalty.  This becomes the ball in play regardless of whether you find your original or not.  This is not technically considered a OOB or a lost ball. For handicapping purposes, I may be wrong, but I believe that you are suppose to try your hardest to shoot as low a score as possible.  This may mean that those with an established handicap must only take a stroke and distance penalty under rule 27-1a when they believe that this is the best alternative from a scoring perspective.  Assuming that this is the case, then your only option that I see is #1 above.

Thanks for the reply, I did not think about the positive benefits to my handicap during play. So, now I need to point this out to my kids (they penalize me on evey shot). :-) I am sure a lot more people are going to be angry at me when I replay, or play without a handicap.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This depends on whether they agreed to waive the rule that both were aware of, or if they didn't know the procedure and agreed to proceed that way in ignorance of the rule.  In the latter case, there is no penalty and the results of the match would stand.

So I guess in some cases, ignorance is bliss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL


Because a tournament can't be played under one set of rules for one person/match, and another for the remainder of the field......if they were aware of the correct rule and decided to waive that rule, then under rule 1-3 they are disqualified.
I have never seen that happen, because I have never seen anyone playing in any kind of sanctioned tournament willfully ignoring, changing, or otherwise waiving the rules.

Playing under a different set of rules is obviously a big problem for a stroke play event, but I don`t see it as a big issue in match play as long as both competitors willingly agree.  i.e. at a club match play event where both competitors play a lot with each other and normally carry 15 clubs.  It is posted that the 14 club rule is in force.  Over lunch before the match they agree to both keep 15 clubs for their match.  Who gets hurt (other than the caddies if they are walking)?

I agree that there are some rules that get violated unknowingly.  The provisional WH could be an example of this (but not in my case going forward).  However, there are other rules that I could see 2 match play competitors knowingly agree to waive including:

Dropping another ball instead of going back to the tee/original spot with a lost ball (or even an OB)

Fixing spike marks on the green

Playing "winter" rules when they are not suppose to be played

Not enforcing a wrong ball penalty on an opponent (more likely in a case where the player who was suppose to hit first walked up to the ball closer to the hole and/or gave his opponent wrong info on which ball was his)

Even if there is an agreement to waive the rules only once in 10,000 matches, it must have occurred often enough that someone on this board has seen it happen.  Who has seen two competitors agree to waive a rule or heard of two competitors getting DQed?

Agreement to waive a rule of golf just because it's a common thing to do at your club is going to to get you disqualified in any properly run competition.  In this case it doesn't matter if anyone else is hurt.  What they did is expressly forbidden in Rule 1-3.

In each of those cases you mention, the solution is simple.  The player making the mistake loses the hole.  If they agree to waive any of those rules, then I don't know what they are playing, but it is no longer a golf match.  While you have the flexibility to not call your opponent on a breach if you choose that road, and the two of you may incidentally agree on a questionable procedure if you are in honest ignorance of what is correct, you still can't make a pact to deliberately ignore a rule.

Quote:

Even if there is an agreement to waive the rules only once in 10,000 matches, it must have occurred often enough that someone on this board has seen it happen. Who has seen two competitors agree to waive a rule or heard of two competitors getting DQed?

I have.  It's happened a few times in my home course Mens Club match play events.  Agreeing to waive a rule or procedure just because you don't feel like following it is simply not allowed.

The beauty of match play is its simplicity.  You don't have complicated multiple penalties to sort out.  In most cases, if you breach a rule, you lose the hole, and nothing  you or your opponent does after that matters until you get to the next tee.  If you see your opponent drop improperly, you can choose to ignore it if you don't see him gaining any advantage by it, or if you're a bit of a jerk, you can wait until he hits and then call it on him to win the hole.  You can also take the more honorable path and counsel him on the correct procedure before the mistake is made.  Despite the flexibility, you still must make an honest attempt to play by the Rules of Golf.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The player making the mistake loses the hole.  If they agree to waive any of those rules, then I don't know what they are playing, but it is no longer a golf match.

That's the key, in my opinion. If you agree to waive the rules of Golf, you're not competing in a Golf tournament. The rules are plenty flexible in a match play situation, as Fourputt went on to explain.

To pick a relatively innocuous example, I agree that, say, waiving the rule about who plays first in a match doesn't materially harm anyone outside the match. It may affect the outcome, but the players would be free to independently not enforce the stroke cancellation. In that sense, it is a little silly to DQ for simply agreeing to do this beforehand. However, as is often the case, there's more to it than that. Where do you draw the line between rules that may be waived and rules that are integral to the game? Without that, the golfers could just agree to play croquet instead. While no one is technically harmed, that's making a mockery of the competition. Golf is not alone in banning that.

Finally, there's a huge can of worms that opens if you allow modifications to the rules: what do you do in the case of a dispute? There is a formal claim resolution procedure for golf for a reason: disputes can and do occur, and sometimes an outside decision is needed. That's not going to work if the rules are changing at the whim of the golfers. It's setting up for a disaster when there's a misunderstanding about the agreed upon exceptions, or when a shady player reneges on a rules change. WIth the rules as they are, this can't happen because a player who knows the rules can always insist they be followed, even if it means making claims to the committee and resolving the disputes after the match.