One more reason the MLB teams in Florida should be contracted.

[meenman]

After all the money spent on the new stadium in Miami, the fire sale of talent has almost been completed - MLB is not viable in this state and never will be. Spring training will survive but there are too many transplants here and it will take 2-3 more generations to have true fan loyalty. I will give Rays ownership credit for trying to do the right thing, but they will never draw serious amounts of fans - even if the stadium were moved to Tampa. Now let's see what team that crook Selig gives to Loria after he drives his second team into the ground.

[ditchparrot19]

Yeah, it's pretty apparent at this point that it's not going to work in the Sunshine State. It'd be interesting to see what occurred, though, with a decent facility in Tampa and a stable ownership in Miami.

[zipazoid]

Disagree.

The 'transplant' argument is moot. It isn't 1982 anymore - there are plenty of year-round residents to support major league teams. Miami doesn't roll up their sidewalks in August. The NFL has 3 franchises in the state. NBA two (and the Magic do just fine here in Orlando). NHL two.

So it's not a reflection of fan apathy that the Marlins did a player fire sale or the Rays have trouble drawing (though I do think it would help if their stadium were on the mainland side of the peninsula. You know, where most of the people live). No, the issue is the sorry state of Major League Baseball itself. The economics have gone ridiculously crazy to the point that only the very-large markets can compete.

So your post almost got it right. I would change your title as follows:

One more reason the MLB teams in Florida should be contracted

This isn't a 'Florida' issue. It's a baseball issue.

[meenman]

Disagree.  The 'transplant' argument is moot. It isn't 1982 anymore - there are plenty of year-round residents to support major league teams. Miami doesn't roll up their sidewalks in August. The NFL has 3 franchises in the state. NBA two (and the Magic do just fine here in Orlando). NHL two. So it's not a reflection of fan apathy that the Marlins did a player fire sale or the Rays have trouble drawing (though I do think it would help if their stadium were on the mainland side of the peninsula. You know, where most of the people live). No, the issue is the sorry state of Major League Baseball itself. The economics have gone ridiculously crazy to the point that only the very-large markets can compete.  So your post almost got it right. I would change your title as follows:

One more reason the MLB teams [S]in Florida[/S] should be contracted

This isn't a 'Florida' issue. It's a baseball issue.

I have to disagree - neither baseball team in Florida has fan support, and when you have an owner like the one in Miami, there is no chance for that team to survive long term. They can put the rays stadium wherever they want and they will still be the Hartford Rays within the next 10 years. People can complain about how long it takes to get to St Pete, but the last 2 times I have gone (with the Yankees in town), I have been in my parking spot 45 minutes after leaving the house. Ask anyone from a real city like NY or LA how long it takes to get to a game. The rays best chance at survival is Lakeland so they can draw from Tampa and Orlando - but that will never happen. Same thing can be said for the NFL - all 3 teams have trouble selling out - 2 are perennial losers and the other in Tampa can not sell out even when the team is good - the first team they put in London will be one of the Florida teams. Long term only 2 professional teams will be able to survive in this state - the dolphins and the heat (as long as they are winning) - the Lightning deserve to be on this list but the NHL owners will make that sport irrelevant soon. MLB did get greedy putting teams in Florida - but to put it as a big/small market problem is absurd. There are only *small* markets because a team did not belong there to begin with. The transplant argument is far from *moot* - as a 30 year Yankee fan before I moved here - why would i change my allegiance anymore than my chowd friends would?

[zipazoid]

It's moot from the standpoint that Florida is no longer a transient state. Hey look, I'm from NE Ohio & have lived in Fla for over 30 years now. Most of us are from somewhere else, but my point is we are here year-round...this is our home.

There are a variety of reasons why Florida MLB teams do not draw like they should. First one that comes to mind is the weather, which is oppressive in the summer. Course, Tampa plays in a dome, so so much for that. In the case of Miami, their stadium is on the site of the old Orange Bowl, in the heart of the city in Little Havana...tough to get in & out of. I think the NFL made a serious gaffe in putting a franchise in Jax simply because the market is too small. But the Miami Heat & Orlando Magic don't have trouble drawing fans.

I guess what I am saying is there are factors for fans not going to games that are far more viable than saying it's a 'Florida Thing.'

[ditchparrot19]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

It's moot from the standpoint that Florida is no longer a transient state. Hey look, I'm from NE Ohio & have lived in Fla for over 30 years now. Most of us are from somewhere else, but my point is we are here year-round...this is our home.

There are a variety of reasons why Florida MLB teams do not draw like they should. First one that comes to mind is the weather, which is oppressive in the summer. Course, Tampa plays in a dome, so so much for that. In the case of Miami, their stadium is on the site of the old Orange Bowl, in the heart of the city in Little Havana...tough to get in & out of. I think the NFL made a serious gaffe in putting a franchise in Jax simply because the market is too small. But the Miami Heat & Orlando Magic don't have trouble drawing fans.

I guess what I am saying is there are factors for fans not going to games that are far more viable than saying it's a 'Florida Thing.'

Well, it's not a "baseball thing." You could put that Rays team in Kansas City or Seattle and people would fill those yards every night.

You're still talking about a $7 billion industry, and that's the number the owners admit to. Also, the idea that small- or mid-market teams can't compete is a fallacy. Sure, they can't become Yankees-style juggernauts, but they can have sustained runs of success when things are done right, as Tampa Bay has proven over the past 5 years and teams like Minnesota and Oakland proved before that.

Take a look at the three biggest markets -- New York, L.A. and Chicago. Out of six teams, only one made the postseason this year. Boston and Philly sat it out, too.

San Francisco, Cincinnati, St. Louis, Washington, Oakland and Baltimore -- all playoff participants -- are all from mid-size or even small markets

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by ditchparrot19

Well, it's not a "baseball thing." You could put that Rays team in Kansas City or Seattle and people would fill those yards every night.

You're still talking about a $7 billion industry, and that's the number the owners admit to. Also, the idea that small- or mid-market teams can't compete is a fallacy. Sure, they can't become Yankees-style juggernauts, but they can have sustained runs of success when things are done right, as Tampa Bay has proven over the past 5 years and teams like Minnesota and Oakland proved before that.

Take a look at the three biggest markets -- New York, L.A. and Chicago. Out of six teams, only one made the postseason this year. Boston and Philly sat it out, too.

San Francisco, Cincinnati, St. Louis, Washington, Oakland and Baltimore -- all playoff participants -- are all from mid-size or even small markets

Well, I reject there's something fundamentally wrong about Florida which keeps the Rays or Marlins from drawing. The 'transient' thing is from a different era.

And sure, you can take a given year, like as you did, this year & say see? Mid-market teams represented in the playoffs. But since you seem to know the economics of MLB you obviously know the large markets have a huge advantage since there's no revenue sharing of local TV contracts. In other words, The NY Yankees are gonna get a helluva lot more money from their TV contract with a NY station than Cleveland will get with theirs.

So there's reasons why, over an extended period of time, the large markets tend to prevail on the field.

But anyway. There's nothing wrong with Florida. Only thing I can think of that would keep people away from, say, Marlins games is that it's Miami....the Marlins have a lot of competition for the entertainment dollar of potential customers. Which would explain why a team draws in, for example Kansas City (your example). Answer? It's Kansas Freekin City. What else you gonna do there?

[meenman]

Well, I reject there's something fundamentally wrong about Florida which keeps the Rays or Marlins from drawing. The 'transient' thing is from a different era.  And sure, you can take a given year, like as you did, this year & say see? Mid-market teams represented in the playoffs. But since you seem to know the economics of MLB you obviously know the large markets have a huge advantage since there's no revenue sharing of local TV contracts. In other words, The NY Yankees are gonna get a helluva lot more money from their TV contract with a NY station than Cleveland will get with theirs. So there's reasons why, over an extended period of time, the large markets tend to prevail on the field.  But anyway. There's nothing wrong with Florida. Only thing I can think of that would keep people away from, say, Marlins games is that it's Miami....the Marlins have a lot of competition for the entertainment dollar of potential customers. Which would explain why a team draws in, for example Kansas City (your example). Answer? It's Kansas Freekin City. What else you gonna do there?

You're living in the past here a bit on TV contracts - every team is banking a lot more when their TV rights are up for renewal (unfortunately for those teams, some have spent the money before it's been received.) Truthfully, there is a lot wrong with Florida - the year round golf is really the only argument I see for staying. I think what ditchparrot was saying is that these other 2nd rate cities would support a winner - I realize KC is like a 3 world country, but the Tampa area doesn't exactly have that much more to do in it. What the Marlins have pulled will pretty much ensure that the taxpayers wont bail the rays out.

[ditchparrot19]

It's not a real mystery why Miami doesn't draw well. Other than the miracle of 2003, the franchise has never given the fans a reason to form a connection with it. It won a World Series in 1997 by throwing a ton of money at a bunch of major league a$$-wipes (Kevin Brown, Gary Sheffield, Bobby Bonilla, et al) and then promptly dumped them in the off-season. This year was hugely important because of the new park and the free-agent signings, and it just couldn't have gone worse.

Other entertainment options are no doubt a factor. There's a few of those in SoCal too, however, and both of those teams put more than 3 million butts in the chairs without the new-park drawing card.

Meen was on the mark -- my whole point about the Kansas City thing is that's a proven market when the on-field product is good. It's a town that would appreciate the heck out of a well-run, overachieving club like the Rays.

The situation in Tampa Bay appears to be hopeless. There are places from coast to coast (from Hartford, Conn. to Portland, Ore.) where that franchise would be a lot better off.

[GaijinGolfer]

The thing about Miami though is that theres simply so much more to do than to go watch a game.  None of the pro teams in Florida have really been all that successful.