Why is a fade more consistent than a draw?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Still thought, for longer clubs, the lie doesn't really matter that much, it wont start the ball that far off left to be significant.

I know. :)

Originally Posted by saevel25

I have to agree, in both my leagues i play in, i can count on two hands the number of players that play a draw. That's out of 50-60 people. So, maybe 1 out of 10, maybe 1 out of 9 people play a draw from the sample group of people i play golf with. Majority of those people who slice, hit a pull slice. Rarely do you see a push slice, even a pull slice with an open enough face can look like a push slice.

Precisely. Virtually nobody who has played golf for a few months actually plays a (target) push-slice (face right of target, path left of that). Virtually everyone who slices does so with a face LEFT of the target.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by iacas

Precisely. Virtually nobody who has played golf for a few months actually plays a (target) push-slice (face right of target, path left of that). Virtually everyone who slices does so with a face LEFT of the target.

Not me right now.

[SoundandFury]

I do think a draw is longer, at least mine is. Lasered a bunch of drives this morning: 10 fades: 8/10 in the fairway. Avg. 260-270 (shorter than I thought). 10 draws: 3/10 in the fairway (clearly I have some work to do). Avg. 280-290. I have no idea why this is, but I'm thinking the spin rate on my fades is a bit higher.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

I do think a draw is longer, at least mine is. Lasered a bunch of drives this morning:

10 fades: 8/10 in the fairway. Avg. 260-270 (shorter than I thought).

10 draws: 3/10 in the fairway (clearly I have some work to do). Avg. 280-290.

I have no idea why this is, but I'm thinking the spin rate on my fades is a bit higher.

I think if you can hit a high draw with a lot of swing speed, which I have never been able to do this could be the case.

Fade's are a bit easier to control when it goes bad.  It always seems when many of us start out with a tight fade, something happens over time causing the fade to become more and more severe.  It is frustrating and we start dreaming of high draws, but in the end you can still control it relatively easily .  And of course you lose distance when this happens.

[Second Chance]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm still waiting for the actual "data" that shows anything. A draw is hit with a face that's rotated LESS through impact. If anything, there's less "release" of the club with a draw than a fade. I understand what you think you're saying about the arms coming off the body or working in a different direction than the hips (though they are in a fade too), but so what? That's just letting your arms swing off your chest, which faders will often do early in the downswing, while drawers do it later in the downswing.

I still say the answer is the one I gave well above: draws TEND to be hit with lower spin loft, and the way many people TEND to hit draws leads to less consistent and "touchier" impact alignments than how people TEND to hit fades.

Upright clubs would promote a ball that starts a bit farther left. I seriously doubt that "most players hit draws" - the slice is still BY FAR the predominant shot shape among "most players."

You can check out the trackman data anytime...just visit thier website. It's been proven that the way we understand a fade/draw has changed. Your discussion of spin is very accurate, but I have experimented with the feel of both and know for a fact that your hands play a far more critical role that either of us discussed. Either way, we are saying very similar things...and I doubt arguing over semantics is worth it at this point.

HOWEVER, I recently did some research on club manufacturing specs. Over the past 4 years...clubs have become more upright and turned down. Take a look at the rocketbladz specs and my case is made. Although an upright club promotes a shot starting left, it also forces your hands to become more upright at impact if you plan to hit it straight...there are only two ways to accomplish this, and they both lead to swing planes that resemble a "traditional" draw/hook.

No other need to argue...the specs speak for themselves. I've had to flatten every club I've bought this year to 2005 "standard" lie angles (which by the way took a lot of searching to find). They were right off the rack, Mizuno MP-59's... explain that?

[cipher]

Originally Posted by Second Chance

You can check out the trackman data anytime...just visit thier website. It's been proven that the way we understand a fade/draw has changed. Your discussion of spin is very accurate, but I have experimented with the feel of both and know for a fact that your hands play a far more critical role that either of us discussed. Either way, we are saying very similar things...and I doubt arguing over semantics is worth it at this point.

HOWEVER, I recently did some research on club manufacturing specs. Over the past 4 years...clubs have become more upright and turned down. Take a look at the rocketbladz specs and my case is made. Although an upright club promotes a shot starting left, it also forces your hands to become more upright at impact if you plan to hit it straight...there are only two ways to accomplish this, and they both lead to swing planes that resemble a "traditional" draw/hook.

No other need to argue...the specs speak for themselves. I've had to flatten every club I've bought this year to 2005 "standard" lie angles (which by the way took a lot of searching to find). They were right off the rack, Mizuno MP-59's... explain that?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Second Chance

You can check out the trackman data anytime...just visit thier website. It's been proven that the way we understand a fade/draw has changed.

Look, not to belabor the point, but I'm pretty confident in my knowledge of the ball flight, spin, club dynamics, etc. And I don't mean the way people thought prior to 1991, or anything like that. I mean the latest, current knowledge.

Originally Posted by Second Chance

Your discussion of spin is very accurate, but I have experimented with the feel of both and know for a fact that your hands play a far more critical role that either of us discussed.

That's you. And don't quote "feels" to me. You want to talk science, let's talk science. You want to talk your "feels" then I'm out and wish you good luck discussing anything beyond what YOUR swing needs to do or feel like or whatever to produce the relevant and correct impact conditions.

Originally Posted by Second Chance

HOWEVER, I recently did some research on club manufacturing specs. Over the past 4 years...clubs have become more upright and turned down. Take a look at the rocketbladz specs and my case is made.

They do this so the ball starts more to the left. A ball that starts a little farther left with the same path will indeed slice less, but the majority of golfers are NOT hitting draws. The majority still slice.

Originally Posted by Second Chance

Although an upright club promotes a shot starting left, it also forces your hands to become more upright at impact if you plan to hit it straight...there are only two ways to accomplish this, and they both lead to swing planes that resemble a "traditional" draw/hook.

I agree with the bold. I do not agree with anything there that's not bold.

But YOU may have some unique things that you FEEL like you do in YOUR swing. That doesn't mean they work for everyone, and it definitely doesn't mean your "science" is correct.

P.S. Again, a few degrees more upright - especially with a longer shaft that will have a bit more droop - does not affect start lines. And again, most people are not hitting draws. It just ain't close to the truth.

[Second Chance]

I can't disagree with your feedback...and your experience in this field. I just think that once people under how the swing path and impact angles affect ball flight it becomes an issue of feel. Some feel it in their hands, others in their legs/arms, etc.