Why is a fade more consistent than a draw?

[SoundandFury]

I've become very consistent off the tee by hitting fades no matter what the situation. They're not particularly short (270-280 total), and no, I'm not simply aiming way left and slicing the ball into the fairway. Start the ball a few yards left of center and at the end it falls back to the middle. Draws however, are a whole different story. 8/10 times I try to play a draw, the ball goes right. It simply will not turn over. Don't get me wrong, I'm super happy with the fade, but I'm curious why it's so much harder (for me at least) to hit consistent draws.

[iacas]

I'll give you two answers.

First, they don't have to be. For many players a draw is more consistent.

Second, note that I said "for many" and not "for most" in the above. Fades are more consistent than draws for most players because of how they hit draws - their mechanics are subtly better for fades. They're comfortable hitting fades. The spin loft is higher so the ball curves a bit less with the same differences in face and path (in 2D), i.e. a 3° difference with 27° spin loft is a subtle fade while 3° difference with 22° spin loft is going to curve a lot more.

[Harmonious]

"You can talk to a fade, but a draw won't listen."   Lee Trevino

[SoundandFury]

I'll give you two answers. First, they don't have to be. For many players a draw is more consistent. Second, note that I said "for many" and not "for most" in the above. Fades are more consistent than draws for most players because of how they hit draws - their mechanics are subtly better for fades. They're comfortable hitting fades. The spin loft is higher so the ball curves a bit less with the same differences in face and path (in 2D), i.e. a 3° difference with 27° spin loft is a subtle fade while 3° difference with 22° spin loft is going to curve a lot more.

Very cool to know, thanks! I guess my follow up question whether I should spend the time learning to draw the ball, and related to that, why is it so damn hard for me to keep the ball from going right? My understanding is that if I'm hitting fades (again, not slices), I'm swinging from the inside with the club face slightly open to the path. If that's the case, why the hell does closing my stance screw it up so bad?

[colin007]

If you truly are hitting a push fade, coming from the inside, then shifting your alignments and closing the face slightly from where it's pointing now shouldn't be an issue.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

I've become very consistent off the tee by hitting fades no matter what the situation. They're not particularly short (270-280 total), and no, I'm not simply aiming way left and slicing the ball into the fairway. Start the ball a few yards left of center and at the end it falls back to the middle.

Draws however, are a whole different story. 8/10 times I try to play a draw, the ball goes right. It simply will not turn over. Don't get me wrong, I'm super happy with the fade, but I'm curious why it's so much harder (for me at least) to hit consistent draws.

If you're not aiming left, but instead have your body aligned to the target and are starting the ball a little left of the target and it's fading back on line then you're hitting a pull fade. That would mean that you're swinging left of your target line with the clubface slightly open to your club path.

If all that is true, that would explain why it's hard for you to hit a draw. Hitting a draw with a swing path going left of your stance line can be hard to do and it's going to want to head right on you. You need to change your stance alignment quite a long way right, and shut the clubface quite a bit to get the ball moving right to left. Getting that alignment correct can be difficult.

[meenman]

Enjoy your fade. My draw is killing me (especially off of the tee box.) At this point I would not only kill for a fade, but even a full slice.

[SoundandFury]

If you're not aiming left, but instead have your body aligned to the target and are starting the ball a little left of the target and it's fading back on line then you're hitting a pull fade. That would mean that you're swinging left of your target line with the clubface slightly open to your club path. If all that is true, that would explain why it's hard for you to hit a draw. Hitting a draw with a swing path going left of your stance line can be hard to do and it's going to want to head right on you. You need to change your stance alignment quite a long way right, and shut the clubface quite a bit to get the ball moving right to left. Getting that alignment correct can be difficult.

Sorry, wasn't clear. I align left of the target. I try to pick a spot either btw the rough and the fairway, or at the edge depending on wind.

[SoundandFury]

Enjoy your fade. My draw is killing me (especially off of the tee box.) At this point I would not only kill for a fade, but even a full slice.

Always want what you don't have...for me a miss left is as good as a fairway hit. I'm stoked with the fade, but I always feel like I'm on swing away from about 200 into the right trees

[rowlf]

1 out of 4 coaches I have seen insisted that I fade my driver and mid-long irons to get better control.

His reason was this, a fade is more controllable and less likely to result in serious mishits whereas a draw could turn into a hook quite easily. I wasn't really taken into it as I was more than happy to play a draw as long as the spray pattern of my ball wasn't too wide. I couldn't care less if it was draw or a fade.

Yes, a fade could be more controllable but I felt consistency is more important than trying to force the issue.

But since the SoundandFury is a single-handicapper, he is more than capable to try and experiment. I look forward to hearing more from him on the his experiences.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by rowlf

1 out of 4 coaches I have seen insisted that I fade my driver and mid-long irons to get better control.

His reason was this, a fade is more controllable and less likely to result in serious mishits whereas a draw could turn into a hook quite easily. I wasn't really taken into it as I was more than happy to play a draw as long as the spray pattern of my ball wasn't too wide. I couldn't care less if it was draw or a fade.

Yes, a fade could be more controllable but I felt consistency is more important than trying to force the issue.

But since the SoundandFury is a single-handicapper, he is more than capable to try and experiment. I look forward to hearing more from him on the his experiences.

One of the reasons single digit players are single digit players is because they do what they need to do to maximize consistency......  It can be boring as hell to watch, but in the end of the day, fairways and greens gets the job done.

Now, if I could just hit more fairways and greens.......

[rowlf]

Originally Posted by David in FL

One of the reasons single digit players are single digit players is because they do what they need to do to maximize consistency......  It can be boring as hell to watch, but in the end of the day, fairways and greens gets the job done.

Now, if I could just hit more fairways and greens.......

Lol. I am trying to bring him down to my level lol

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by rowlf

1 out of 4 coaches I have seen insisted that I fade my driver and mid-long irons to get better control.

His reason was this, a fade is more controllable and less likely to result in serious mishits whereas a draw could turn into a hook quite easily. I wasn't really taken into it as I was more than happy to play a draw as long as the spray pattern of my ball wasn't too wide. I couldn't care less if it was draw or a fade.

Yes, a fade could be more controllable but I felt consistency is more important than trying to force the issue.

But since the SoundandFury is a single-handicapper, he is more than capable to try and experiment. I look forward to hearing more from him on the his experiences.

Honestly, its just as easy to slice the ball as it is to hook a ball. That generalization is wrong. When i had my swing tuned to a draw last year, want to know how many times i came close to hitting a hook, ZERO!, it wasn't close. Most professionals who hit a draw, there misses are pushes right. Rory is one of the few pro's i hear struggle with a hook. The reason is he comes so far form the inside. Its hard to come from the inside like that. Most players have a more shallow inside out path, and hit a smaller draw, which is very hard to hook.

[cipher]

I essentially cannot hit a draw with the driver, I can only hook it.  I can play a fade all day usually.  I am struggling a bit right now pushing the fade because of a swing change but it is usually very accurate and it seems you can hit it just as long.  We are talking about a tight fade though and not a slice.  I really don't know why so many of us(myself included) have been obsessed with hitting draws off the tee other than it looks sexy.  Even when I push fade one as I am doing now, there is a lot more forgiveness than a nasty hook.

[Mr Smell Good]

Originally Posted by meenman

Enjoy your fade. My draw is killing me (especially off of the tee box.) At this point I would not only kill for a fade, but even a full slice.

Believe me you don't want the slice

[Second Chance]

Ok... alot of guys here seem a bit confused. First, we need to identify how to hit a fade/slice and a draw/hook, based on actual trackman/radar/video data. All this is reverse for lefties...

FADE: Club path is across the ball from right to left. Imagine the drill the tiger was exaggerating, pulling the club left. The club face at impact is also pointed slightly left of target (hence an open stance promotes this. Fades are MORE CONSISTENT because they utilize the big muscles and remove your hands from the equation. All you have to do is hold your hands through impact until gravity naturally takes over, and spin your hips through ahead of the hands. However, make sure that right foot is under control or you'll get stuck and hit the wretched double cross....

DRAW: The club path is inside to out, imagine an ellipse vs. an arc where the club goes right of target. This imparts side spin to the ball making it go right to left. The club face is pointed just right of target at impact. Draws are LESS CONSISTENT because they require excellent timing when releasing the club, since your hips are pulling in the exact opposite direction that you want the club to go...your hands have to be almost perfect. This is why hooks happen more often than slices...

So, now that we have that down--hitting a draw is simple! If you ball is going right and not drawing back, you are simply not releasing the club right of the line you are starting it on. In other words, you have to FEEL like you are exaggerating throwing your hands well right, while allowing your hips to completely clear.

Finally, most players hit draws nowadays because club manufacturers are compensating for 99% of amatuer golfers slices. I would venture to say that most clubs you will find in neutral positions today are a solid 1 to 2 degrees upright (promoting a draw)...

GOOD LUCK!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Second Chance

based on actual trackman/radar/video data

…

FADE: Club path is across the ball from right to left. Imagine the drill the tiger was exaggerating, pulling the club left. The club face at impact is also pointed slightly left of target (hence an open stance promotes this. Fades are MORE CONSISTENT because they utilize the big muscles and remove your hands from the equation. All you have to do is hold your hands through impact until gravity naturally takes over, and spin your hips through ahead of the hands. However, make sure that right foot is under control or you'll get stuck and hit the wretched double cross....

DRAW: The club path is inside to out, imagine an ellipse vs. an arc where the club goes right of target. This imparts side spin to the ball making it go right to left. The club face is pointed just right of target at impact. Draws are LESS CONSISTENT because they require excellent timing when releasing the club, since your hips are pulling in the exact opposite direction that you want the club to go...your hands have to be almost perfect. This is why hooks happen more often than slices...

I'm still waiting for the actual "data" that shows anything. A draw is hit with a face that's rotated LESS through impact. If anything, there's less "release" of the club with a draw than a fade. I understand what you think you're saying about the arms coming off the body or working in a different direction than the hips (though they are in a fade too), but so what? That's just letting your arms swing off your chest, which faders will often do early in the downswing, while drawers do it later in the downswing.

I still say the answer is the one I gave well above: draws TEND to be hit with lower spin loft, and the way many people TEND to hit draws leads to less consistent and "touchier" impact alignments than how people TEND to hit fades.

Originally Posted by Second Chance

Finally, most players hit draws nowadays because club manufacturers are compensating for 99% of amatuer golfers slices. I would venture to say that most clubs you will find in neutral positions today are a solid 1 to 2 degrees upright (promoting a draw)...

Upright clubs would promote a ball that starts a bit farther left. I seriously doubt that "most players hit draws" - the slice is still BY FAR the predominant shot shape among "most players."

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by iacas

Upright clubs would promote a ball that starts a bit farther left. I seriously doubt that "most players hit draws" - the slice is still BY FAR the predominant shot shape among "most players."

Still thought, for longer clubs, the lie doesn't really matter that much, it wont start the ball that far off left to be significant.

I have to agree, in both my leagues i play in, i can count on two hands the number of players that play a draw. That's out of 50-60 people. So, maybe 1 out of 10, maybe 1 out of 9 people play a draw from the sample group of people i play golf with. Majority of those people who slice, hit a pull slice. Rarely do you see a push slice, even a pull slice with an open enough face can look like a push slice.